Negative Camber in the Rear and Expensive Tires

[Chris1howell]

Cyber Monday is almost over so how about "Tesla Tuesday". All Tesla Products in the OpenEV store are 20% off with the discount code "teslatuesday". The code is active now through tomorrow.

I have a few pairs rear links left that will remove one degree of camber. Both links and links with tooling are in stock. Tooling can be returned for a $200 credit...

 

[KevinMS]

Chris1howell, how soon will the suspension links with OEM dampers be in stock (I have the old links)? At second annual service, SC technician said that camber bolts were no longer offered to correct out-of-spec negative camber and suggested that I do not use the air suspension "low" setting to minimize tire wear. Thanks!

 

[kennybobby]

That seems odd to no longer offer the adjusting bolts to correct out-of-spec camber...

Does anyone have an old or worn out bushing, or a control arm with the OEM bushings? i would be happy to press out the bushing and cut it open to determine construction details, etc., and investigate the possibility of an alternative source/vendor. Even the complex BMW bushings with their internal components can be had for less than $50--the tesla bushings appear to be simple by comparison and a replacement should be lower cost.

 

[lolachampcar]

I looked into the bushings early on. They are sourced by Tesla's Canadian supplier that produces the links and appear to be the fluid filled type (early cars). The hard aftermarket bushing approach was not applicable as there is some angular misalignment accommodated by the stock bushing that is not possible is solid bushings. I went so far as to build a set of arms using high angular misalignment ball bearings of the type used in aircraft control surface hinges but found removing all compliance compared to the new low compliance bushings made absolutely no difference in handling or feel. I did not go any further and thus can not comment on the current production bushings.

Going back to sourcing them, I talked with two suppliers and they required R&D along with huge purchase quantities. I opt'd for a set of pressing tools to remove the bushings from my stock arms and then press them into the new arms. It was beyond easy assuming you have a press.

 

[rogbmw]

Cyber Monday is almost over so how about "Tesla Tuesday". All Tesla Products in the OpenEV store are 20% off with the discount code "teslatuesday". The code is active now through tomorrow.

I have a few pairs rear links left that will remove one degree of camber. Both links and links with tooling are in stock. Tooling can be returned for a $200 credit...

Chris - did you get my PM? Thanks.

 

[yobigd20]

I wonder how often this guy goes through tires:

 

[Chris1howell]

I have a few sets of Rear Suspension Links remaining, at this time I will not be doing another batch.

The remaining links have been discounted below my original cost.

Pair of links $249
Pair of links with tooling $475 ($200 refund for tooling return)

http://store.openevse.com/collections/tesla-model-s/products/rear-upper-suspension-link-for-tesla-models

 

[lolachampcar]

Chris,
Sorry to hear it did not work out for you......
Heads up to new production (or at least PDs like mine). The outboard joint has been changed from rubber to a hard ball type. The outboard hole in the link needs to have a slightly smaller diameter thus making for right and left hand links.

 

[BFCobra]

Our 2 sets of links are in the hands of USPS headed to me. With any luck they might go in this weekend.

Sorry to hear Chris is stopping production. The guys at the alignment shop when I went today were very excited about this development for addressing tire rear wear. What we did see on the 2013 P85+ was that the 16,200 mile front tires were worse gone then the rears. Left worse then right, about 1.75 inches of cord. Guys suggested I not drive it. Which means to me, no power launches, but drive away.... They are sort like slicks.... Rears have about 8k on them and the very edge of the steel belt is becoming visible. Light enough when I first saw it Sunday I assume it was dirt from the street. The shop refused to swap side to side to wear the outer tire surface. Oh, well.... Rear of the P85+ had the concentric bolts put in at one of the service appointments. I hope they are still there. I plan to mark with colored pen all suspension bolts once we dial in the best set, to monitor it like it was a Pre-production vehicle. Tesse is a little hard to see under, but these events make me want to treat her like the BFC and do "creeper tours" at least quarterly.

My boss got a 2015 P85D. Both Tesli will end up with lowering links. P85+ has had then for most of its life to date.He often ran the 2013 in "Low". I am hoping that after install we can get the rear to -1 degree of camber in "Standard", and if I want to go play, "low" should gain -.4 degrees if it drops 2" from "Standard" to "Low" or a total rear camber on the lighter set of the Tesla Spec at -1.4 degrees.... Here's to hoping the math works out.

In my solid axle Blue Fake Cobra, aka BFCobra, with variable coil overs, zero rear - not adjustable anyway, camber, and -1.0 degree front works absolutely flat on tire wear on all 4 corners. I redesigned that suspension with GM spacers to make sure the it stayed. Like Lola, I am used to the feel of a low to neutral cambered car. I have only had the P85+ for 10 days.... Getting an education

Chris how many units do you have left? My Tire Rack tires arrive at the local shop tomorrow, and I can mention the closing opportunity..... because they were excited.

 

[lolachampcar]

BF,
You'll recognize the "camber bolts" as they look like aftermarket head bolts. The "body" is necked down to the ID of the thread. The key is to pull the upright top out to bias the bolt slop when you tighten down the bolts. This gives you that little help with rear camber.

Also, note that the rubber in the bushings acts as your "bearing" for rotational movement. It is important to tighten the bolts when the upright is in normal ride height else you will be riding around with undue torque on the rubber bushing and they will fail.

Good luck.
Bill

 

[BFCobra]

I've seen that before. Torqueing non loaded suspensions creates springs. I had a Acura Legend repair after wife had an incident. Right front was 1.5 inches up and the shop insisted it was correct. They refused to loosen and re-torque under body weight until I got a regional insurance person involved. Funny, it sat right down when properly installed. :wink:

Are the P85D lowering links the same as the P85+?
How much does MS drop per step in the air suspension? Looking at your drawing of -.4 degrees per 2" drop, thinking about the delta from Standard to Low - is that 2"? I haven't had a chance to measure yet, and am asking in case you already know.

Thanks,

 

[lolachampcar]

links are the same between P+ and PD (as is the rest of the air system including the springs themselves)......

I have no idea what the camber gain is anymore. I did that work over two years ago

 

[BFCobra]

Looking at the current Tesla site, the air suspension travel is from 6.4" to 4.7". A delta of 1.7". At the -.4 camber per 2" of vehicle drop, from your earlier drawing, that would calculate to a potential change with its range of negative .34 degrees. Listed ground clearance is 5.65" nearly the mid-point of the range which is 5.55".

So close enough for horse shoes.... Zero won't be achievable, but better wear and an ability to have fun are the objectives.


Thanks,

 

[Chris]

After over two years of driving with a mileage of approx. 25K miles on the OEM 21" Continental DW (I have a separate set of winter tires) it is now time to get new tires. While 25K is not bad from what I am reading here I did notice uneven wear: Outside has 4-5mm, DW logo is visible, inside is down to 1mm. I have air suspension. It still seems excessive. What do you all think? Thanks

 

[BFCobra]

I just replaced tires, and had a 4 wheel alignment on a 2013 P85+.

Too much toe out on the front, too much toe in on the rear. I installed the .21" longer rear upper links, and dropped a degree of negative camber. We have lowering links on this car. Tesse's now in the green on all suspension specs - save the camber left front - as we ran out of adjustment at 1.2 degrees vs. max spec of 1.1 degrees. 2.0 degrees negative in the back, and toe in of .18; front is toe out -.05 degrees, negative camber right at the edge of 1.1 degrees, all within spec.

It will still wear tires, but with the toe's nearer to neutral not as much as it was, it should be much better. Pilot's went 16.3K front and rears out in 8k for 2 sets. IMHO, lowering links caused front and rear toe to go in the wrong directions, creating drag, and excess tire wear. I've only had the car 2 weeks, and have not highway driven it since the re-do this morning. Long story, but had 2 hours sleep after doing volunteer work for a missing child last night until 4:00 this morning.....

Thank you Lolachampcar and Chris for your help. I am hoping with these changes I'll get 15-20k out of a set of tires. But I could also be going for the wH/mile championship.... until someone tries to pass....

Best to all, BFC

 

[CHG-ON]

I have been following this thread since I took delivery 9/29 and fretting about what to do about the 21" tire wear. I just sat down and read through all 54 pages now and I have learned SO MUCH! Thank you to Lola, especially, and the many other much-more-intelligent guys than me on this thread.

I am having Hankooks installed tomorrow and now I know what specs to require for alignment. I am going conservative at first, spec.ing the low end of the factory specs to see how I like it. I'm not a racer, but do like to go out and hot-foot it quite a bit. No burn outs-too expensive. I've actually been pretty lucky compared to many in that I got 9K out of my rear Michelins to get down to the wear bars. And I have seen no cording at all. I've watched for it. So clearly, Tesla must have fixed something. Though all four tires are wearing on the inside more than the outside. The rears have 1/2 the tread left on the in compared to the out. Fronts not as bad.

I practically live on this site (looooozer) because I am so into it and this thread has, by far, been the most informative, educational and useful thread yet.

Thank you very much to all.

Update 4-2

Just got the Hankooks on and went for a moderate sport drive. They are markedly smoother and quieter than the PS2's. Granted they are brand new. But I think they are quieter than the others when they were new. I need to break them in a bit more, but they were very stable and predictable.

 

[NuclearPowered]

Car was into the service center for handle replacements today. Had them look at alignment at same time since we just chewed through a set of rear tires.

I can see why now.

Service center says they cant do anything about the excessive negative camber even though the owners manual I have says -1.75 +-0.35. Apparently the updated upper camber links that several people had received are no longer being issued. Escalating this issue up the chain as I feel they should be doing something more. We do not plan on burning through $800 sets of tires every 5k miles.

Displeased that they are unable to conform to spec distributed in the owners manual. We will be asking for a new set of tires under warranty if they cant bring our car to within printed specifictation. Supposed to get a call monday on how they are going to proceed, but after today I am expecting resistance. Not happy.

 

[lolachampcar]

Even if they do meet camber spec. (-2.05), that kind of toe in on the rear will kill tires. I have been running 0.1 degrees of TOTAL toe in on the rear for some time now with good results. My 2WD MS' tend to follow highway imperfections a bit more with the low toe in numbers but I considered it a reasonable trade off for the improved tire wear.

I suspect longer upper suspension arms are the only way you are going to get that rear camber into a long term livable range. Any efforts short of that will be symptomatic management.

 

[NuclearPowered]

I appreciate your comments. I'll wait to hear what Tesla has to say on Monday, but at this point expecting to have to purchase the custom set from OpenEV and installing them myself while working with an independent alignment shop to get the angles dialed in just right.

 

[BFCobra]

Tesse (2013 P85+) is set up with .18 degrees rear toe. Guess I could have gone even less. I have to say I feel the car is freer with toe changes, -.48/-.12 front; .66/.36 Rear; Total Toe Pre/Post adjustments. Not that a 416hp machine felt slow, just that I think I could feel the drag....

The Tessie II (2015 P85D) is about to get the .21" uppers, and lowing links (tomorrow evening) followed by an alignment. LolaChampcar, remind me on the press what we need to do for the "D" bushings? Size of wire, or.... You mentioned the front wheel drive allows the "D" to get away with 0 degrees toe in the rear, correct?

I'll be taking Tessie II to the alignment shop, for her owner, and would appreciate your alignment thoughts. PM if it makes more sense.

Thanks, BFCobra