Negative Camber in the Rear and Expensive Tires

[lolachampcar]

My comment on the newest rear upper link is that Tesla has moved from a rubber annulus joint inside and outside to a steel ball style joint on the outside and the original rubber style joint on the inside. Tesla made a change in the link design to accommodate the new outer steel ball style joint. The outboard bore is smaller to either increase the press fit or to accommodate a smaller joint OD. I did not measure the joint to determine why the bore was smaller; I only know that it is smaller.

I would suggest any links you might use should have the smaller outboard bore as using older, same bore inside/outside, links may have insufficient press fit to properly retain the new style outboard joint. Also note that the new smaller outboard bore size makes links either left side or right side depending on which of the two bores were left smaller. Put differently, you can no longer use just any link on any side of the car.

Lastly, you do not want to run zero toe in the rear as the rears will tend to toe out under acceleration loads. The wheel is pulled forward against the lower a-arm which causes the front side toe link to toe the tire out. I've used toe out on the rear of race cars to get them to rotate under acceleration but I would not suggest getting anywhere near this on a street car unless you are adventurous I set mine at 0.15 total (both wheels together) toe in on the rear.

 

[mnx]

I guess this is as good as thread as any to ask a question about tire wear. I bought a set of Nokian Zline (320 wear rating) tires last fall. I have 1000 miles on them so far.

The tread depth in the rear is 8/32 on the outside and 7/32 on the inside. In the front tread depth is even at 8/32. Is tire wear linear or do they wear *much* faster initially?

If wear is linear, it seems my tires will be shot before I travel 4000 miles on them. That seems crazy to me. My previous set of OEM goodyears lasted 20,000 miles. Comments/Thoughts?

 

[lolachampcar]

Picture in your mind's eye what the tread portion of the tire looks like on the road when you tilt the top the tire in towards the car. The inside shoulder is more heavily loaded than the outside shoulder. As the tire wears, you get a LITTLE more even loading so the wear rate will slow a bit. That said, there is no way to reduce wear without reducing toe in and/or removing some of the negative camber. Sorry.

 

[jerry33]

I guess this is as good as thread as any to ask a question about tire wear. I bought a set of Nokian Zline (320 wear rating) tires last fall. I have 1000 miles on them so far.

The tread depth in the rear is 8/32 on the outside and 7/32 on the inside. In the front tread depth is even at 8/32. Is tire wear linear or do they wear *much* faster initially?

If wear is linear, it seems my tires will be shot before I travel 4000 miles on them. That seems crazy to me. My previous set of OEM goodyears lasted 20,000 miles. Comments/Thoughts?

Well, tires do wear faster initially because the rubber flexes more when the tread depth is high, but that's not the problem here. The problem is alignment. Toe-out is the big killer in the rear on a Model S (too much toe-in will also shorten life, but that's generally not the problem). The negative camber just amplifies any alignment problems.

 

[mnx]

Well, tires do wear faster initially because the rubber flexes more when the tread depth is high, but that's not the problem here. The problem is alignment. Toe-out is the big killer in the rear on a Model S (too much toe-in will also shorten life, but that's generally not the problem). The negative camber just amplifies any alignment problems.

So you think my alignment is bad? That was my thought initially, but the wear is even front and rear...

 

[lolachampcar]

jerry and I have slightly differing opinions in that I am reasonably sure from past experience that -2 degrees of rear camber will still wear the inside shoulder of the tire even if you are running near zero toe in. It is a matter of degrees (pun intended). High negative camber with lots of toe in or out will chew up your tires very fast. High negative camber with little toe will chew up your tires but take longer to do so. The moral for me was to make sure I was running the toe I wanted while getting rid of the negative camber.

Tesla has helped with newer cars by running them at a higher ride height. They have updated code on the air suspension on older cars to run them higher as well.

 

[Cyclone]

Tesla has helped with newer cars by running them at a higher ride height. They have updated code on the air suspension on older cars to run them higher as well.

I would love more details about this. I see references to the height of the various air suspension levels, but I have found 3 different sets of offsets for them. I originally wanted coils mainly because of the increased feel and general reliability on other makes. Air wasn't a showstopper for me. The CPO I am buying has air, and I plan to spend most of my time in Standard and lots of areas for High/Very High. Part of that is I'm used to driving an SUV with a 9.0" clearance.

Additionally, I know Tesla has tweaked their alignment specs since the original rollout, but what are the current recommendations? I'm a novice, so I'll be taking my car to a local shop that offers lifetime alignments and don't know what to expect or provide as a guideline for where I'd like to be. I'm NOT a performance driver, so comfort while having some driving fun would be ideal.

 

[jerry33]

jerry and I have slightly differing opinions in that I am reasonably sure from past experience that -2 degrees of rear camber will still wear the inside shoulder of the tire even if you are running near zero toe in. It is a matter of degrees (pun intended). High negative camber with lots of toe in or out will chew up your tires very fast. High negative camber with little toe will chew up your tires but take longer to do so. The moral for me was to make sure I was running the toe I wanted while getting rid of the negative camber.

I absolutely don't disagree with you that less negative camber would improve tire life immensely. With large negative values it only takes a very small amount of incorrect toe to cause this. (Not enough to show up as wear). I guess we can be thankful it's not like this.

http://imgur.com/gallery/3SZuiCc

 

[ra-san]

Well, I think the issue with that last picture is just that it's probably set at its lowest air suspension setting. I'm sure it's fine at standard height. And think of the stability increase going around corners at high speed.

 

[lolachampcar]

Thumbs up Jerry

 

[yobigd20]

I absolutely don't disagree with you that less negative camber would improve tire life immensely. With large negative values it only takes a very small amount of incorrect toe to cause this. (Not enough to show up as wear). I guess we can be thankful it's not like this.

http://imgur.com/gallery/3SZuiCc View attachment 80005

Wow I hope there's an extra set of tires hidden inside that the car actually puts the weight on and these are just cosmetic. lol great pic though

 

[Cyclone]

Please forgive me as I've only read 10 out of the 56 pages in this thread. But suffice it to say, is it currently the case where excessive negative rear camber (mine, rotating clockwise from front driver's side is -1.0, -0.8, -1.9, -2.4) cannot be adjusted without aftermarket parts? Or is this now something I can have the Service Center address. My alignment shop said rear spec is -1.4 to -2.1 and -0.4 to -1.1 on the front. Seeing as I have new tires, I would like to get it set right for the long term. Thanks!

 

[lolachampcar]

Tesla did offer some "sloppy bolts" that allowed the Service Center to reduce rear camber. The last I heard via second hand was that those bolts were no longer available. If that is true, aftermarket parts would be your only other option (besides raising the vehicle).

If you stay with your current camber, you may want to consider something a little less than 0.38 degrees of rear toe in as it is the combination of toe and camber that really eats up the inside shoulders of the rear tires. It is not that 0.38 total is bad; its just that you can get away with less and have your tires last longer. The car will tend to follow highway grooves a tad bit more with less rear toe.

 

[redi]

Tesla did offer some "sloppy bolts" that allowed the Service Center to reduce rear camber. The last I heard via second hand was that those bolts were no longer available. If that is true, aftermarket parts would be your only other option (besides raising the vehicle).

Sorry to zombie-up the thread, but...

I did hear from what I consider a reliable source that Tesla will be producing some longer upper links swapable at customer request. I know nothing more, no dates, nada. Maybe hope for those running fat 21" rears wanting less negative camber I guess.

I did lose my "sloppy bolts" at the SC due to problems of them "not holding position", and now have the standard bolts. I believe you are correct about them being no longer available. With the standard bolts and the +.210 openevse links I'm showing about ~~ lt 1 deg neg camber and .35 deg toe min they could get with that camber. Seems about right.

 

[lolachampcar]

I get near zero toe in with 0.210 longer upper links when the motor cradle is centered up on the chassis (for even toe change range on both sides).

 

[yobigd20]

wow theres a staggering number of complaints on the NHSTA site since I last checked. Here are some related ones regarding the suspension:

 

[lolachampcar]

I just rotated the tires on my P85D. I got the car with stock 19s and did my own wheel tire package using Nurbergrings and Pilot Super Sports in 20". The aftermarket 20" package was half the price of Tesla's 21s with better wear and grip. I also got a very nice 10 lbs per corner reduction in unsprung weight.

Anyway, the rears were down to 0.220" and the fronts to 0.180" with both even wear across the tires. I was a bit surprised to see more wear on the fronts. I'll chalk that up to the AWD asking the fronts to turn and accelerate. With wear like this, I'll likely get over 25K miles out of a set of tires which is unheard of for me :0

 

[AWDtsla]

I just rotated the tires on my P85D. I got the car with stock 19s and did my own wheel tire package using Nurbergrings and Pilot Super Sports in 20". The aftermarket 20" package was half the price of Tesla's 21s with better wear and grip. I also got a very nice 10 lbs per corner reduction in unsprung weight.

Anyway, the rears were down to 0.220" and the fronts to 0.180" with both even wear across the tires. I was a bit surprised to see more wear on the fronts. I'll chalk that up to the AWD asking the fronts to turn and accelerate. With wear like this, I'll likely get over 25K miles out of a set of tires which is unheard of for me :0

What did you have before? PSS is roughly twice the life of PS2, with greater grip no less...

 

[lolachampcar]

Stock staggered set up on a P+
And yes, the PSS is a much better tire/value.

 

[bradhs]

PSS do not come in 265 size. That's the bummer... I called Michelin and requested the size but they said more people have to call.

We all need to call into Michelin if you want these sizes.. If you do call in please mention case # 6080920. That's my case from January 2015 requesting 265 and also 275 since you can plus size the rear if you want.

Here's the email:

Thank you for your email. We welcome the opportunity to serve you.​

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In regards to the email you sent stating:
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I need the following PSS tires sizes:
245/35R21
265/35R21
275/35R21

Any chance?

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We appreciate your interest in Pilot Super Sport tires.​

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The 245/35ZR21 96Y is a current size in Pilot Super Sport. This tire is on backorder with no current production shown.

We don't currently produce the 265/35ZR21 or 275/35ZR21 sizes. I will forward your request to our marketing department for consideration.

We appreciate your business and thank you for choosing Michelin.

It is our goal to ensure that your issue has been resolved or your question answered to your satisfaction. If we can assist you further, please respond to this email or call us at 1-866-866-6605 (toll free) between 8:00AM and 8:00PM Eastern Time Monday through Friday or between 8:30AM and 4:30PM Eastern Time on Saturday.

Sincerely,

Mike
Consumer Care Department
Certified Michelin Product Expert​