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Makes me wonder what's happening upstairs at Corporate. Or maybe it's just a web site problem?
pedriscoll
Active Member
This is one of the best threads I have seen here in a long time. I think people are making excellent points all around. Tesla is still a young company and Tesla vehicles are extremely innovative. No one else would even consider free OTA software upgrades. They have been addressing quality issues in a reasonable manner. However, they do not communicate well with customers. They set expectations high and then cannot deliver. For a software company, that would be expected. That is not expected or acceptable for a car company that wants to enter the mass market.
I absolutely love this car and bore my friends all the time with my raves. My wife tells me I should install a bathroom and just live in the car. However I want Tesla to succeed so I never have to by another brand again (I had driven Toyota's since 1978). Unless they address the communication issues and ongoing quality control issues, I fear they may not succeed or survive.
I absolutely love this car and bore my friends all the time with my raves. My wife tells me I should install a bathroom and just live in the car. However I want Tesla to succeed so I never have to by another brand again (I had driven Toyota's since 1978). Unless they address the communication issues and ongoing quality control issues, I fear they may not succeed or survive.
benf
Member
My $100k Model S with 3,000 miles on it has more rattles, ticks, buzzes, etc. than my $17k Scion xB dog hauler with 50,000 miles on it. I knew up front that even for $100k, the Model S was not going to compare to my $75k BMW in terms of interior noise, material quality, build quality, etc. I was OK with that, and was willing to look the other way due to all of the other awesome aspects of the Model S. What I didn't expect was for it to have more quality control issues than an econobox.
Now, Tesla will fix all of my issues, I have no doubt. But expressing concern about them and demanding that they be fixed has nothing to do with entitlement. If someone GAVE me a Model S, complaining about these things would be a different story. But I spent $100k and expected a certain level of quality for that price. If "entitled" people like me don't start saying something about this stuff in larger and larger numbers, it's going to continue like it has for the past 3 years.
Wow, I never even looked at this before and as someone from the corporate world it's alarming that the top executives are all tech. There should be a CFO, General Counsel, and HR in addition to technology (and other roles) at that level. I also clicked on the BoD link and I don't see a lot of variety or independence there either. As a shareholder I would expect that group is there to a) protect my interests and b) guide Tesla's strategy not friends and family of the Chairman, founder and CEO!
@Andyw2100, thanks for explaining your views, totally understandable. The thing that would bother me the most would be if they don't grandfather you in Ranger Service. 200+ miles is NOT doable for service. It should be more like 50 miles or less.
I agree completely that our feedback should help them improve. I accept a lot of it because I mentally allocate a huge chunk of the vehicle cost toward the drivetrain and ability to take electric road trips. I figure if I put 90% into that category, I'm doing pretty well. But I realize that some people don't value the drivetrain the way I do, so it's important that they continue to improve in all areas.
I'm not conflating two separate issues at all.
They are directly connected because both they are two totally different ways of selling cars.
If you expect Tesla to deliver a car like GM then you will be disappointed (or pleased)
If you expect GM to deliver a car like Tesla then you will definitely be disappointed
Tesla broke the car mold by making the car a technology device and treating it as such.
A tech company version of "working product" is the problem.
I think of the current Model S as Model S.4.22.19 - its four service packs in with at least 22 major patches for this service pack and 19 hot fixes
OK, I wildly guessing on the actual numbers, but you get the idea.
Model S is a tech product, not a car.
I agree 100%, Tesla is burning money and they need to true up quality issues. If you ever watch Shark Tank on CNBC the Sharks loose interest if you present them a company that after its 3rd year are still having serious quality issues. Everyone knows to carve anything out of thin air will take cash and for about 2-3 years that's ok to be in the Red. But now its 5 years and some guy spent 100K to have his Frunk Gap be so Big a pigeon could fly in there and stay warm during winter.
Not Acceptable
I'm not conflating two separate issues at all.
They are directly connected because both they are two totally different ways of selling cars.
If you expect Tesla to deliver a car like GM then you will be disappointed (or pleased)
If you expect GM to deliver a car like Tesla then you will definitely be disappointed
Tesla broke the car mold by making the car a technology device and treating it as such.
A tech company version of "working product" is the problem.
I think of the current Model S as Model S.4.22.19 - its four service packs in with at least 22 major patches for this service pack and 19 hot fixes
OK, I wildly guessing on the actual numbers, but you get the idea.
Model S is a tech product, not a car.
I was with you until the last sentence unless you're saying they need to be a legit car company.
We do? I've been here about 18 months now and I gave up on trying. I've only gotten the "wtf?" look in response to my waves and have yet to see those unmistakeable headlights go.
One of my quirky non-negotiables is...I don't pay for and order-for-later-delivery...anything. Bring it to me. Show me. Let me make sure I understand what I'm buying and approve of the product...then bring on the contract.
That leaves me to buy used or CPO or demo. There are a lot of threads about the lack of pricing delta between CPO/Demo. That was a challenge.
To add substance to this thread though - I was an early adopter on the Volt. I cut my teeth there. So I do consider myself an early adopter. We still have two 2012's and a 2014 Volt in my household. That was a more embattled car to be an early adopter than Tesla, by far. With that said, I do appreciate those that had the means and desire to step in super-early and let Tesla exist in 2015 when I purchased my car. I understand the new breed of buyers that compare dollar-for-dollar the Tesla to other ICE cars for the same price. I also understand the folks for whom... "meh...it's just a car. A cool one. But just a car".
There's no way to grow the company if all the customers have to be one type of buyer. I've enjoyed the heck out of this thread. But from the very first post onward, I've thought to myself "uh huh...yep...to be expected...yep...no kidding" and even a few "well...duh" type responses.
There aren't very many cars on the market for me. I'm an electric car guy 100% now. I'll never go back unless I have no choice. That's one type of buyer. For me - it's a question of "which electric car". Lots of folks who drive a car like mine are "which $90,000 car regardless of fuel". And still others are "which car is cool today regardless of price?"
Circling back to my first point though - if Tesla would produce cars for stock, that would be better. People could choose their car in reality, not just in theory. Creeks, rattles, disappointing options, comfort issues, etc., would all be apparent at the test drive stage. Which would be better. In my opinion.
That leaves me to buy used or CPO or demo. There are a lot of threads about the lack of pricing delta between CPO/Demo. That was a challenge.
To add substance to this thread though - I was an early adopter on the Volt. I cut my teeth there. So I do consider myself an early adopter. We still have two 2012's and a 2014 Volt in my household. That was a more embattled car to be an early adopter than Tesla, by far. With that said, I do appreciate those that had the means and desire to step in super-early and let Tesla exist in 2015 when I purchased my car. I understand the new breed of buyers that compare dollar-for-dollar the Tesla to other ICE cars for the same price. I also understand the folks for whom... "meh...it's just a car. A cool one. But just a car".
There's no way to grow the company if all the customers have to be one type of buyer. I've enjoyed the heck out of this thread. But from the very first post onward, I've thought to myself "uh huh...yep...to be expected...yep...no kidding" and even a few "well...duh" type responses.
There aren't very many cars on the market for me. I'm an electric car guy 100% now. I'll never go back unless I have no choice. That's one type of buyer. For me - it's a question of "which electric car". Lots of folks who drive a car like mine are "which $90,000 car regardless of fuel". And still others are "which car is cool today regardless of price?"
Circling back to my first point though - if Tesla would produce cars for stock, that would be better. People could choose their car in reality, not just in theory. Creeks, rattles, disappointing options, comfort issues, etc., would all be apparent at the test drive stage. Which would be better. In my opinion.
But what if you were donating half of your collected fee to charity? Should I expect the service that I paid for, or half the service I paid for because you only kept half the money?
There are numerous quotes along the way in this thread, and I see it supporting the continuum between two extremes - "I believe in the Tesla mission and I think of the money I spent on this car as a donation towards that mission, and, oh, by the way, there was a small gift that came with it, and it's this car" at one end and "I am paying a luxury vehicle price, I want the experience and product that matches that price".
There may be a handful of people that fall into either of the extremes, but the great majority fall somewhere in between. I don't think it's a question of "early adopter" or "I bought it last Tuesday", though you would expect the early adopters to at least have started closer to the "mission" extreme than the "luxury car" extreme.
Either way, you can see how it would at least confuse and, depending on the person, annoy somebody closer to one extreme when they're discussing a particular issue with somebody closer to the other extreme. If you're closer to the "luxury car" extreme, it'd be weird not to bring up the issue of "fobs aren't tied to profiles, yet a $15k car has that", and if you're closer to the "mission" extreme, a comment like that would be weird and annoying, because they can't figure out how doing that would advance the mission of electrifying personal transportation.
I'm not sure I have a point.
I could take all the money and have a bonfire with it. As a customer, you should get the full expected service and not worry about what I do with my money (btw, I do see what you're trying to do with your question)
The rest of your statement I agree with.
I've used DOS/Windows and Unix/Linux for many, many years starting back in the mid to late 80s. I'm one of those people who intuitively figured out early VCRs. I started building plastic models at 3 and have no problem putting Ikea furniture together. Figuring things out is usually very easy for me. As an Electronic Engineer by training, I learned the fundamentals of computers first and know intuitively what is and isn't possible and when faced with a program or OS that isn't familiar, I start with basic principles and then work out what the syntax is on that particular machine.
I have never been able to grok Apple OSs. It takes me 10X longer to figure out anything on an Apple OS than anything else. The reason is Apple has their own way of doing things and if you don't want to do it that particular way, tough, you aren't doing it. Other OSs take a broader approach and there are often multiple ways to do the same thing.
My SO is a big Apple fan. She had one of the first Macs and one of the first Apple laser printers. MacOS ha always been completely intuitive to her. She and I think similarly about a lot of things, but when it comes to computer OSs we think very differently. She likes to characterize Apple haters as thinking that Apple users are mentally deficient or something, but she's more brilliant than I am in raw brain horsepower.
Looking at her and other people I know who prefer Apple over other OSs, Apple's approach is intuitive to the way some people think, but is totally alien to other people. If you think that way, Apple OSs will be the best thing you have ever seen, if you don't using them will be torture.
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Upon reflection, using the term "entitlement" may have been a bit stronger than I meant.
I did read an article sometime last year that said Tesla does have more of a challenge with noise than other car companies because the engine is so quiet. A lot of squeaks and rattles that would go unnoticed in an ICE are very noticeable in a Tesla because of the lower motor noise. After reading that article, I began to listen to my old ICE which has always seemed very quiet to me. It has some engine noise, but I realized I've been in ICEs all my life and my brain just tunes out most of it. It's quiet compared to other ICE, but the engine noise is definitely there. Under the engine noise I noticed all sorts of rattles, creaks, and other noises that I mostly tuned out because they were part of the background symphony of noises that all ICE have to one degree or another. Unless a rattle gets very loud or very consistent, I just don't notice.
I do see both sides of the fence. A Model S is a $100K car and is more expensive than most people have ever paid for a car. If you're paying as much as a house in some parts of the country for a car (not in any west coast cities, but there are places you can buy a decent house for $100K if you want to live there), you expect certain standards to be met. On the other hand, the Model S costs what it does largely because of the batteries. Batteries still cost a premium compared to ICE. I have seen estimates that the Tesla battery pack costs somewhere between $20K and $30K. Tesla also makes $20K profit on the sale. Between the cost of the battery and profits, that's nearly 1/2 the sales price. The profit margin is probably as high as it is because Tesla hasn't lowered the price of the car and the cost of batteries has come down a bit.
If the Model S was an ICE, it would cost about $50K, which is in the ballpark of other full sized, well equipped family cars like a loaded Ford Taurus or Toyota Avalon. It gets far better mileage, better performance, and better cargo space than anything in that class.
I think a lot of the early buyers were also very much into the cause of putting BEVs on the road. As some others have observed in this thread, a lot of newer buyers are less concerned about that and more interested in other features of the car, especially the P85D and P90D buyers. I have to admit I wouldn't be interested in the Model S just because it's an EV. What drew me in was the superior qualities in many areas over an ICE. As an Electronic Engineer, I can appreciate the technology, but as I said before, technology alone doesn't sell something to me.
Well you haven't seen me yet! lol
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It's pretty well known that Tesla's margin in the car is over 20%. Tesla does not lose money on each car, that's nonsense. The reason Tesla doesn't post a profit is due to capital expenditures to grow the company. If you looked just at the vehicle numbers, the margin is much higher than the typical ICE.
I'd be glad to say hi sometime. I miss meeting owners that were still passionate about the car and company.
Yep. Not everything in the tech and software world is perfect either. Games pre-orders have gotten a bad reputation, because games are delayed. unfinished games released or they come with other issues. That's really not the direction Tesla want to be going. And as other have already said that comes down to communication and to overdelivering and underpromising and not the other way round.
kevincwelch
Active Member
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