New Roadster Goodies for 2014

[dpeilow]

No a 3.6 Ah cell is the minimum needed to make the claimed range and that would be well into the "cannot calculate" zone. Plus I've not seen it on Panasonic's roadmap although other suppliers have one. Personally, on a drive like that I would want some margin.

Panasonic announced this 4 Ah cell on Christmas Day 2009. It's highly unlikely that Tesla will receive the first batch the day before the 400 mile pack goes on sale.

 

[Model 3]

But there are MANY shades of gray from an unsafe prototype to a 100.00% tested battery pack.

Exactly.

There are posters here that say the battery cells has to be 100% perfect. That's not true. For the Roadster, it's good enough with 99.9% perfect, for the Model S/X it has to be 99.999% - and for the Gen-III cars it has to be 99.99999% perfect. (All figures are approaches)

If they upgrade 2000 Roadsters with the new battery, and 2->10 battery packs fails, that's ok - replace on warranty.
If they produce 20000 Model S/X with a new battery, and 20->100 battery packs fails, that's not ok. Manageability, but expensive and may gives some bad press.
If they produce 200000 Model 3 with a new battery, and 200->1000 battery packs fails, that will give a lot of bad press and may give Tesla and EV's a bad reputation it may be hard to overcome.

So yes, test a 99.9% perfect battery on the Roadsters to make sure it's not only 99.9% - but 99.99999% perfect before using them on a mass-marked car. Makes perfect sense.

 

[JRP3]

Except any cell put in a Roadster before the GF is up and running is not going to be the Model 3 cell, so that makes no sense.

 

[macpacheco]

Except any cell put in a Roadster before the GF is up and running is not going to be the Model 3 cell, so that makes no sense.

Are you claiming that the GF will make a type of cell only the GF can build ? This doesn't make sense. The GF is about scale and efficiency. They don't have a magic sauce that other Li Ion factories don't have. Of course since the GF will be focused on automobile and energy storage uses, they might have zero focus on making cells for phones/tablets/computers, so they might specialize in larger cells.

 

[JRP3]

Musk has said it will be a physically larger cell so it won't fit in the existing Roadster pack, unless they redesign the pack from the ground up, which I highly doubt. Additionally a cell that's ready today for use in a vehicle will undergo further refinement before the Model 3 comes out. If the Roadster upgrade is available in 2015 it won't be the same chemistry as the Model 3 cell and it certainly won't be the same form factor.

 

[uselesslogin]

If they had more energy dense cells ready for prime time now they'd put them in the S, offering a longer range version, and raking in a lot more money. It's not happening because they don't have next gen cells ready yet.

Or, they have the cells but can't produce them in a high quantity yet. Therefore they will release them in the Roadster to test them out at low production volumes before offering an upgraded pack for the Model S/X.

 

[scaesare]

I certainly have no desire to be a Tesla guinea pig and I highly doubt this is what they have planned. Model S cells it is.

The cells in the Roadster had never been used in a production car before. Only in labs and test mules.

The cells in the Model S had never been used in a production car before. Only in labs and test mules.

Just because a new cell (or any other component for that matter) is introduced in to service the first time, does not mean that it hasn't been tested and considered to be production ready.

 

[bonaire]

The 2K roadster owners are the perfect beta-test set for a larger 3.6 to 4.0 Ah cell. If things work out there, then extend volume to Model S as an upgrade pack in a year or so.

 

[JRP3]

And if things don't work out, and there are problems with the packs in the hands of the public? A 2000 person public test group that paid to upgrade their packs that suddenly start failing on them? Does that seem like a business strategy? Of course it won't be 2K owners but an unknown subset of that who might actually decide to upgrade, at some point in time. This continued "public test" concept is really blowing my mind. If Tesla uses a next gen cell it's been fully tested and the handful of Roadster owners who might put 30K miles on them in a year won't be contributing any new meaningful data for Tesla.

 

[Chickenlittle]

And if things don't work out, and there are problems with the packs in the hands of the public? A 2000 person public test group that paid to upgrade their packs that suddenly start failing on them? Does that seem like a business strategy? Of course it won't be 2K owners but an unknown subset of that who might actually decide to upgrade, at some point in time. This continued "public test" concept is really blowing my mind. If Tesla uses a next gen cell it's been fully tested and the handful of Roadster owners who might put 30K miles on them in a year won't be contributing any new meaningful data for Tesla.

again you claim that they would be releasing untested batteries. Of course not. They could be in same position as when they sold model s cars. At that point they were still testing and updating. Different versions of battery packs out there. And how would they have discovered the vulnerability of the car to under strikes and need for titanium shields

 

[JRP3]

That wasn't cell testing. The cells were fully tested. That was a pack design weakness under unusual circumstances. I'm quite sure Tesla did not expect to sell cars to the public with the intent of seeing if they might blow up.

 

[bonnie]

Whatever it is, I'm happy about it already.

And I hope that whatever the details are, we don't have a bunch of people complaining that it's not what they would have done, and why can't they make it supercharger compatible, or it should have been this, or it should be pink, or whatever. This is something that we didn't expect. And it's a new option for owners. (Not to mention that it will likely increase resale value for Roadsters going forward.)

My reaction? Yay.

 

[dpeilow]

Just before the Roadster went into production they shifted from 2.2 to 2.4 Ah cells. They didn't have months or years of heritage either.

I'm sure whatever Tesla decides to use they have already cycle tested them over and over.

While these might not be the Model 3 form factor, there is value in a "Beta" trial of the chemistry and the new electrode technology.

Perhaps Tesla will offer two options: The conservative one for those that just need a replacement under the seven year contract and a bleeding edge one for those that sign the disclaimer. After all, that kind of flexibility was a selling point of the ESS design.

 

[bonnie]

I doubt we're going to have design options offered, of any kind. (I've seen requests for 'half-packs' in other threads, too.) The market is simply too small to put the extra engineering time on developing different configurations right now. There is an opportunity cost here - for every hour spent on this, it's an hour less spent moving forward the S, X, or Model 3. And that's where the money is.

 

[dpeilow]

By the way, is this the cell in the P85D? It too has the long awaited silicon anode.

https://www.akkuteile.de/tpl/download/NCR-18650BF.pdf

 

[Doug_G]

Mod Note: Split the thread... discussion continues over at Roadster 3.0

 

[Jaff]

Absolutely agree with this...Roadster owners, on the whole, are more "grass roots" than many Model S owners...more willing to take chances / take one for the team / help advance the cause imo...

The 2K roadster owners are the perfect beta-test set for a larger 3.6 to 4.0 Ah cell. If things work out there, then extend volume to Model S as an upgrade pack in a year or so.