Nissan wants Tesla Model 3 reservation holders to buy LEAFs, launches new ad campaign

[dhanson865]

your fanboyism aside, I stand by my comments. real world driving, a mix of secondary and interstate driving you will not get more than 70+ miles per charge, if you then factor in poor climatic conditions your range will be even lower.
the limited range of the LEAF didn't work for me. It may me great for some people, people who drive defined daily routes with zero deviation, have the ability to charge at work or just use it as a "station" car will find the car more than adequate for their needs. this has nothing at all to do with any sort of "wimpiness" on my part this has to do with real world usage and this is after I drove one for almost 3 years. So my conclusion is that if you have the need for traveling more than 70 or so miles at a "normal' real world suburban pace without charging the LEAF just doesn't work well. trying to stack the LEAF up against the potential of the model 3 is apples to oranges.

Just to be clear the only one doing the fanboy thing is you.

I'm pro Tesla and think Nissan screwed up royally in a number of ways. I just don't agree with your view of "normal driving" which must apparently consist of one or more of

1. driving over the speed limit
2. driving on lower than optimal tire pressure
3. leaving significant amount of SOC left in the pack when you decide it doesn't have enough range.

Once you stop doing that I have no beef with anyone that says Tesla anything is miles ahead of Nissan anything. The worst Tesla is better than the best Nissan Leaf. I'll never argue otherwise. Model 3 will still be better than Leaf but I don't see it as a Leaf vs Model 3 discussion. I see it as a reality vs "that nissan Leaf wont work for most people" which I feel is a strawman argument / fallacy / FUD.

 

[pchilds]

Your 107 mile EPA range LEAF will have 70 miles EPA range in three years. And Nissan still doesn't think they need a TMS. Batteries should last ten years minimum not three.

 

[dhanson865]

Your 107 mile EPA range LEAF will have 70 miles EPA range in three years. And Nissan still doesn't think they need a TMS. Batteries should last ten years minimum not three.

Absolutely the number one valid complaint about a Nissan EV. Damn things are too sensitive to environmental temperature.

 

[kort677]

Come on guys, the thread was never intended to be a "LEAF SUCKS" thread, it was to make a point on their horrible marketing and the fact that the spotlight has been taken away from them just like with the Bolt.

I don't think that anyone has said the leaf sucks, I and others have noted that it is severely range limited

 

[SageBrush]

real world driving,
"normal' real world

Your "real world," I grant you.

Set a highway speed and weather, then we can have a rational conversation.

I thought about a LEAF for my 90 mile commute because my driving style always exceeds EPA estimates by about 20% in fair weather, but the colorado winter easily knocks 20% off good weather range so it was too close a call.

 

[kort677]

Your "real world," I grant you.

Set a highway speed and weather, then we can have a rational conversation.

I thought about a LEAF for my 90 mile commute because my driving style always exceeds EPA estimates by about 20% in fair weather, but the colorado winter easily knocks 20% off good weather range so it was too close a call.

nonetheless you rated my comments as a dislike. I've owned a leaf, and in optimum weather conditions there is no way your leaf will be able to do a 90 mile commute without getting a charge at some point, excepting if you do the drive at 40 mph

 

[SageBrush]

nonetheless you rated my comments as a dislike.

Yes -- my second dislilke since joining the forum because I object to to the presumption that your driving habits, conditions, and weather somehow dictate what must be true for every single other person on the planet.

 

[HanSolo]

The way I see this, at some point we are going to have significant cancellations of M3 reservations due to many factors that have been talked about in the M3 subforum. I think Nissan wants to be there to catch people on the re-bound just like the lover who was dumped.

 

[BluestarE3]

I think Nissan wants to be there to catch people on the re-bound just like the lover who was dumped.

Yeah, but those rebound relationships often don't seem like such a good idea after all in the cold clear light of day... better to do a lease so you can go back to your true love after you've realized your mistake.

 

[renim]

...
The thing about the ad is that it's not disparaging to Tesla at all. It's just sending the message that there are reasonable PEVs available today. My guess is that it's more likely to help the used LEAF market (for people who will continue to wait on their Model 3).. but I'm sure Nissan knows what they're doing.

Its more subtle than that, that add has multiple aspects to it, but one sublimimal aspect from that add is that EVs are so good, that lot and lots of people are reserving them, Nissan is able to deliver them.

(yes, nissan are not Teslas etc blah)

but the point is, this type of Smack talk is pro EV smack talk. Can you imagine Mercedes or Lexus Lexus' Anti-EV Ad Lives On with the same message that Nissan just gave, why wait for the future? EVs are now.

 

[cwerdna]

If Model 3 buyers actually wanted an EV, they can buy brand new ones for under $10,000 total price today.

Where? Which model(s)?

 

[cwerdna]

Your 107 mile EPA range LEAF will have 70 miles EPA range in three years. And Nissan still doesn't think they need a TMS. Batteries should last ten years minimum not three.

Not quite. You're assuming 35% capacity loss in 3 years. Sure, with the non-lizard batteries (pre-2015 Leafs, esp. the '11 and '12s), that will happen in hot climates like Phoenix.

The used '13 Leaf SV I'm driving (build date of 5/2013, 1st in service date of late 6/2013) still has all its capacity bars and thus still has over 85% capacity remaining. I do expect to a lose a capacity bar by the time this summer's up, denoting ~15% capacity loss. Those in the milder climates like the Seattle area and Oregon have it easy on the batteries.

And the '16+ Leaf SV and SL (30 kWh models vs. the 24 kWh batteries in all '11 thru '15 Leafs and '16 Leaf S) have an 8 year/100K capacity warranty (http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/presskits/us-2016-nissan-leaf-press-kit), to warrant it will stay above 9 capacity bars (once you hit 8 bars, you're supposed to have lost somewhere over 30% capacity).

Agreed that I don't like Nissan's attitude that TMS "isn't needed".

 

[SageBrush]

Yeah, I enjoyed the play on words and double entendre too, but I enjoy some of the old beer commercials as well (thinking of you, frogs)

And the '16+ Leaf SV and SL (30 kWh models vs. the 24 kWh batteries in all '11 thru '15 Leafs and '16 Leaf S) have an 8 year/100K capacity warranty (2016 Nissan LEAF Press Kit), to warrant it will stay above 9 capacity bars (once you hit 8 bars, you're supposed to have lost somewhere over 30% capacity).

That sounds like progress. Is the gauge linear and reliable ?

I'm not making sense yet of your noted bar/capacity relationships.
Do I remember 12 bars correctly ?

 

[pchilds]

Not quite. You're assuming 35% capacity loss in 3 years. Sure, with the non-lizard batteries (pre-2015 Leafs, esp. the '11 and '12s), that will happen in hot climates like Phoenix.

The used '13 Leaf SV I'm driving (build date of 5/2013, 1st in service date of late 6/2013) still has all its capacity bars and thus still has over 85% capacity remaining. I do expect to a lose a capacity bar by the time this summer's up, denoting ~15% capacity loss. Those in the milder climates like the Seattle area and Oregon have it easy on the batteries.

And the '16+ Leaf SV and SL (30 kWh models vs. the 24 kWh batteries in all '11 thru '15 Leafs and '16 Leaf S) have an 8 year/100K capacity warranty (http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/presskits/us-2016-nissan-leaf-press-kit), to warrant it will stay above 9 capacity bars (once you hit 8 bars, you're supposed to have lost somewhere over 30% capacity).

Agreed that I don't like Nissan's attitude that TMS "isn't needed".

Sure in San Francisco and the Pacific Northwest, the batteries hold up fine. The Lizard battery is not doing well in the lower third of the country. Lizard Pack NOT Holding Up - My Nissan Leaf Forum

You will still be down to 70 miles, before they replace the battery.

 

[cwerdna]

That sounds like progress. Is the gauge linear and reliable ?

I'm not making sense yet of your noted bar/capacity relationships.
Do I remember 12 bars correctly ?

To elaborate, the '13+ Leafs and '11 thru '12 got a 5 year/60K capacity warranty, partly due to a class action lawsuit. To qualify, you need to be down to 8 capacity bars (out of 12) or lower within that period. The capacity values were in the service manual and listed at Battery - Electric Vehicle Wiki, but I believe they were removed w/no explanation given.

'16+ Leaf SV and SL (w/30 kWh) get a 8 year/100K mile capacity warranty.

 

[cwerdna]

Sure in San Francisco and the Pacific Northwest, the batteries hold up fine. The Lizard battery is not doing well in the lower third of the country. Lizard Pack NOT Holding Up - My Nissan Leaf Forum

We will have to see how much better they are, if any than the '11 or '12 or slightly later '13s. We already had indications that the '13+ Leafs built on/or after 4/2013 seem to have batteries that are degrading less than those in any Leafs built before that. Whether the "lizard battery" is any better, only time will tell.

I recall remarks that the Leaf Spy readings on '15s early on are kinda goofy, for the lack of a better word and even the gid count on a full charge might be on the low side before the BMS learns the battery.

But again, the 30 kWh models get a benefit of 3 more years and 40K more miles to become an 8 bar loser.

To repeat what I said, 70 miles vs. 107 implies ~35% capacity loss, which if that happens within 3 years, means you'll qualify for free battery replacement.

 

[TaoJones]

In a year, some higher-mileage pre-AP MSes will sell in the mid-$30K range, and will make fine bridge cars for the 2-3 years during which the owners will have to wait for a M3 at that point. They will also enjoy double the range of a Leaf and the full safety margin that a MS provides and enough drive train (as it were) warranty to last until their M3 is ready.

Can't justify owning a new Leaf, especially since the same gas savings will apply. Leasing, maybe, but... blyech!

 

[SageBrush]

To repeat what I said, 70 miles vs. 107 implies ~35% capacity loss, which if that happens within 3 years, means you'll qualify for free battery replacement.

That makes sense if the bar graph is linear since the warranty is based on the graph.

 

[cwerdna]

That makes sense if the bar graph is linear since the warranty is based on the graph.

It isn't linear. As I said before, the remaining capacity values are at Battery - Electric Vehicle Wiki. And, they were in the service manual and supposedly removed w/no explanation given.

 

[SageBrush]

And, they were in the service manual and supposedly removed w/no explanation given.

I hope Nissan plays fair and does not muck with historical correlations.

Do you know if the percentage is of nominal capacity or something else ?