Now that NACS is becoming the standard, do you think highway restaurants will start installing charging options?

[LoudMusic]

I've always thought that highway restaurants like Cracker Barrel, Texas Roadhouse, etc, and other big chains like Outback, Applebees, etc, would be great sites for EV charging. Any time I've identified a Supercharger location at one of those types of restaurants I've scheduled our drive for a meal time arrival and stayed for a full charge and a sit down meal.

Now that these businesses could potentially have their own charging scheme rather than having Tesla branded equipment, do you think we'll see more restaurant charging options popping up?

I suppose the same could be said for grocery stores and other big box retail like Target and Walmart.

 

[E90alex]

While yes there should be more charging options everywhere, NACS makes zero difference to their deployment. They could have installed chargers before or now with CCS if they wanted to.

I don’t think restaurants and stores should have full speed fast charging. They need like 50-75kW fast chargers which will take over an hour to charge. That way people won’t have to worry about idle fees or moving their car after it finishes in 20-30 min.

 

[Big Earl]

I don't see these restaurants investing in charging infrastructure themselves, as it isn't their business. I do see them continuing to partner with Tesla and perhaps others to form a mutually beneficial relationship. Why would these businesses want to pay for and maintain charging equipment when Tesla is more than happy to do it in exchange for some parking spaces?

 

[Tam]

Walmart.

Walmart and its Sam's Club is doing it:

Walmart’s preparing to build its own coast-to-coast EV charging network

Walmart’s building a nationwide EV fast charging network by 2030.

www.theverge.com

 

[Tam]

7-Eleven, Inc. Launches New Electric Vehicle Charging Network, 7Charge

/PRNewswire/ -- Today 7-Eleven, Inc. announced 7Charge, its new, proprietary EV charging network and app that delivers a convenient and reliable fast-charging...

www.prnewswire.com

 

[Supcom]

While yes there should be more charging options everywhere, NACS makes zero difference to their deployment. They could have installed chargers before or now with CCS if they wanted to.

I don’t think restaurants and stores should have full speed fast charging. They need like 50-75kW fast chargers which will take over an hour to charge. That way people won’t have to worry about idle fees or moving their car after it finishes in 20-30 min.

Combine fast charging with valet services so you don't need to move your car after charging is complete.

 

[LoudMusic]

While yes there should be more charging options everywhere, NACS makes zero difference to their deployment. They could have installed chargers before or now with CCS if they wanted to.

I don’t think restaurants and stores should have full speed fast charging. They need like 50-75kW fast chargers which will take over an hour to charge. That way people won’t have to worry about idle fees or moving their car after it finishes in 20-30 min.

I think most didn't see CCS as a successful endeavor, based on real world examples. But with the success of Tesla and the simplicity of their charging, drawing in those hundreds of thousands of existing travelers, not to mention future growth, could be a financial boost.


Would it be possible to just put more pedestals on a single V3 charger? They currently do a maximum of 4 pedestals on each 1MW V3 charger, guaranteeing 250kw of charging for each spot. But what's stopping them from putting 10 to 20 pedestals on a single 1MW charger and load sharing across them? Then omit idle fees. In order to reduce initial installation costs they could position the pedestals so they each reach multiple parking spaces, and then come back in and add more pedestals as they begin to generate profit.

For Cracker Barrel specifically, limiting to a slower rate of charge could actually be additionally beneficial since they have a store attached.

 

[SSonnentag]

Level 2 chargers are more likely, especially once the business owner(s) and employees start buying EVs. They need chargers that allow fees so that they can at least break even on the electricity expense though. Maybe they could work out a system where you get electricity discount code on your restaurant receipt based upon how much you spent at the restaurant. The last thing restaurants need are freeloaders plugging in and sitting inside taking up a table for 2 hours while ordering a cup of water and coffee.

 

[Genie]

L2 would be pretty easy for the business to estimate their costs, for L3/SuC is there any baseline per stall estimate for installation cost? EA,EVGO, and Tesla probably don’t share that info, how would business owners determine if the investment made sense?

 

[E90alex]

I think most didn't see CCS as a successful endeavor, based on real world examples. But with the success of Tesla and the simplicity of their charging, drawing in those hundreds of thousands of existing travelers, not to mention future growth, could be a financial boost.

People forget that NACS and Tesla’s own charging network are two separate things and should not be conflated.

Yes, Tesla supercharging is currently the most seamless experience, but that’s because everything is vertically integrated.

Once third parties come into play, that all goes out of the window. Tesla superchargers with magic docs to charge CCS cars are not as seamless and are susceptible to communication issues with cars just like other CCS stations.

Third party chargers with an NACS plug will be no different in reliability or ease of use compared to current chargers. They will still use CCS communication. Just the physical plug head is different.

 

[LoudMusic]

Level 2 chargers are more likely, especially once the business owner(s) and employees start buying EVs. They need chargers that allow fees so that they can at least break even on the electricity expense though. Maybe they could work out a system where you get electricity discount code on your restaurant receipt based upon how much you spent at the restaurant. The last thing restaurants need are freeloaders plugging in and sitting inside taking up a table for 2 hours while ordering a cup of water and coffee.

Absolutely not. "L2" is a maximum of 19.2kw, and there are almost no vehicles that can charge from L2 over 11kw. If I have to charge my 75kwh battery from 5% to 95% in order to continue a road trip, 11kw isn't going to work and I'm not going to use it. L2 is for overnight stays.

The maximum I think most people would tolerate is a 1hour lunch or dinner stop. That's going to require likely a minimum of 50kw and likely closer to 100kw, which requires DCFC (commonly referred to as L3).

 

[LoudMusic]

People forget that NACS and Tesla’s own charging network are two separate things and should not be conflated.

Yes, Tesla supercharging is currently the most seamless experience, but that’s because everything is vertically integrated.

Once third parties come into play, that all goes out of the window. Tesla superchargers with magic docs to charge CCS cars are not as seamless and are susceptible to communication issues with cars just like other CCS stations.

Third party chargers with an NACS plug will be no different in reliability or ease of use compared to current chargers. They will still use CCS communication. Just the physical plug head is different.

It doesn't have to go out the window. In order to use Supercharging I had to create a Tesla account, add a credit card, and add a car to the account. After that I just plug in and the charging source and vehicle discuss how to drain my hard earned money from my bank account. The same could be done for any charging network.

It's nearly as seamless with ChargePoint on their L2 stations. I've used them infrequently with great success. I just tap my phone and plug in my car.

The difference is, using NACS gets the entire audience of the very large Tesla market without those users requiring an adapter. And theoretically all future EVs as well.

 

[Big Earl]

Would it be possible to just put more pedestals on a single V3 charger? They currently do a maximum of 4 pedestals on each 1MW V3 charger, guaranteeing 250kw of charging for each spot. But what's stopping them from putting 10 to 20 pedestals on a single 1MW charger and load sharing across them? Then omit idle fees. In order to reduce initial installation costs they could position the pedestals so they each reach multiple parking spaces, and then come back in and add more pedestals as they begin to generate profit.

A single V3 charging cabinet is 387 kVA, not 1,000. At full load, each stall gets approximately 96 kW. A single cabinet would likely get hooked up to a trio of 100 kVA transformer cans (one for each phase), providing 300 kVA max, putting each stall at ~75 kW at full load.

As for adding more stalls, I believe V3 cabinets are only capable of outputting to a maximum of 4 posts. Adding more would likely require significant redesign.

 

[LoudMusic]

A single V3 charging cabinet is 387 kVA, not 1,000. At full load, each stall gets approximately 96 kW. A single cabinet would likely get hooked up to a trio of 100 kVA transformer cans (one for each phase), providing 300 kVA max, putting each stall at ~75 kW at full load.

As for adding more stalls, I believe V3 cabinets are only capable of outputting to a maximum of 4 posts. Adding more would likely require significant redesign.

Where are you getting those specs from? What I'm finding says they're 1000kw.

A Quick Guide To Tesla's New V3 Supercharging - CleanTechnica

Earlier this year, Tesla launched the third version of its Supercharging stations. While the basic functions of the V3 Superchargers are the same as previous generations, there are some subtle differences, so CleanTechnica hit the road to put the new stations to the test.

cleantechnica.com

Introducing V3 Supercharging | Tesla

www.tesla.com

I've seen it in a handful of other websites as well.

 

[corbin630]

Restaurants could cheaply install Tesla Universal Wall Connectors that charge at 30 to 44 miles per hour and that is going to be plenty for many customers who sit there for an hour for a meal. Might even encourage them to stay a little later and order dessert. People who don't charge at home would be more likely to eat at the Texas Roadhouse with a charger that can get them 30 to 44 miles during an hour dinner vs other restaurants that will cost them miles due to sentry mode running in the parking lot.

 

[Big Earl]

Where are you getting those specs from? What I'm finding says they're 1000kw.

A Quick Guide To Tesla's New V3 Supercharging - CleanTechnica

Earlier this year, Tesla launched the third version of its Supercharging stations. While the basic functions of the V3 Superchargers are the same as previous generations, there are some subtle differences, so CleanTechnica hit the road to put the new stations to the test.

cleantechnica.com

Introducing V3 Supercharging | Tesla

www.tesla.com

I've seen it in a handful of other websites as well.

I’ve been following the Supercharger network expansion very closely for six years, three of which have been as a supercharge.info editor. I’m getting the specs from the data plates on the units themselves. There is a ton of discussion right here on TMC about how powerful V3 charging units are, how the sites are built and how they share power at the site level.

Regarding the language on Tesla’s website: The power cabinet is capable of handing nearly 1 MW of power *if* it is connected via the DC bus to two other power cabinets on an appropriately sized utility transformer (1000 kVA). A power cabinet can take 387 kVA from the grid and accept up to 575 kVA via the DC bus from the other power cabinets, each of which can also pull 387 kVA from the grid. This allows for a 12-stall site to serve four vehicles on one cabinet (plugged into 1A, 1B, 1C and 1D) with up to ~962 kW of power shared across all three cabinets… near enough to 1 MW, and essentially at the limit of the site transformer.

Assuming 1:1 kVA to kW ratio and sites without battery storage or solar, a 4-stall V3 site can provide a max of 387 kW total. An 8-stall V3 site can provide a max of 774 kW (usually only a 750 transformer). A 12-stall site can provide a max of 1,161 kW (usually in a 1000 transformer).

 

[pb2000]

Where are you getting those specs from? What I'm finding says they're 1000kw.

Here's a picture to help with Big Earl's explanation.

: