NYT article: Stalled on the EV Highway

[Norbert]

He!

Elon's tweet on this matter:

Elon Musk ‏@elonmusk
Revolutions don't happen if you just roll over to the powers that be. Got to fight for what you believe. That's why Tesla CEO Elon Musk is right to battle bad review of the Model S, experts say - San Jose Mercury News …

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... don't know about average Joe, but this is not your average CEO...

 

[artsci]

To the average Joe: unfavorable. He'll believe the NYT over Elon.

The average Joe doesn't read newspapers, let alone the NYT.

 

[Dan5]

Im wondering if stockholders can have a class action lawsuit against the NYT and Broder for lying. After the initial report the stock went down, the logs tend to show that the initial report was an exaggeration, so they may have a case. Any thoughts.

 

[SteveG3]

View into Broder's Credibility

I think Broder has the intelligence and writing ability to explain "away" a great deal, as his blog responding to Elon's data blog seemed to do. I put it on a par with a cheating spouse... often there's always an answer, a twist. Do I know he's lying, of course not, but consider this:

If Tesla's log data is true, there is clear evidence that Broder practices story-telling, if we don't want to use the word lying.

Broder wrote that his point was to test if the car was "normal use" practical. In the original article he wrote, "my feet were freezing" and "my knuckles were turning white," and described warming his hands on a cup of coffee.

Tesla reported data: average temperature 72, with one 50 minute stretch just over 64, and one fifty minute stretch at 66.

I just went to Wikipedia to see that the average high in New York City in October is 64.6.

Imagine this scenario, Broder is your friend, and you ask him, "hey, I'm thinking of going to NY in October... check out Central Park in the daytime..." Broder replies, "Sure, you can go... but if you don't have the right gear with you, your knuckles will turn white from the cold, and your feet will be freezing on your nice afternoon in the park."

If he were your friend, you might go to NY, and perhaps find having a sweater along helpful, and say to yourself, "I should of known, John and his dramatic stories. Entertaining stuff, but nothing to bank on."

Now, picture Broder is a travel writer for the New York Times. He writes an article read by millions about visiting New York in October, and a normal experience in it's Central Park. He details, "Sure, you can go... but if you don't have the right gear, your knuckles will turn white from the cold, and your feet will be freezing on your nice afternoon in the park."

Bottom line, there are many aspects of his story that are very suspect to so many of us, but he can dance around with skill. I think the climate data is one example that Margaret Sullivan (ombudsman reviewing the piece) can turn to everyday experience and see straight through the dance.

 

[woof]

Now Director of Communications at SpaceX I believe.

Maybe they'll ask Broder to write a story about a Falcon Heavy launch...and get him the best seat in the house...on the launch pad just below Engine #5!

 

[Norbert]

I think Broder has the intelligence and writing ability to explain "away" a great deal, as his blog responding to Elon's data blog seemed to do. I put it on a par with a cheating spouse... often there's always an answer, a twist. Do I know he's lying, of course not, but consider this:

If Tesla's log data is true, there is clear evidence that Broder practices story-telling, if we don't want to use the word lying.

Broder wrote that his point was to test if the car was "normal use" practical. In the original article he wrote, "my feet were freezing" and "my knuckles were turning white," and described warming his hands on a cup of coffee.

Tesla reported data: average temperature 72, with one 50 minute stretch just over 64, and one fifty minute stretch at 66.

I just went to Wikipedia to see that the average high in New York City in October is 64.6.

Imagine this scenario, Broder is your friend, and you ask him, "hey, I'm thinking of going to NY in October... check out Central Park in the daytime..." Broder replies, "Sure, you can go... but if you don't have the right gear with you, your knuckles will turn white from the cold, and your feet will be freezing on your nice afternoon in the park."

If he were your friend, you might go to NY, and perhaps find having a sweater along helpful, and say to yourself, "I should of known, John and his dramatic stories. Entertaining stuff, but nothing to bank on."

Now, picture Broder is a travel writer for the New York Times. He writes an article read by millions about visiting New York in October, and a normal experience in it's Central Park. He details, "Sure, you can go... but if you don't have the right gear, your knuckles will turn white from the cold, and your feet will be freezing on your nice afternoon in the park."

Bottom line, there are many aspects of his story that are very suspect to so many of us, but he can dance around with skill. I think the climate data is one example that Margaret Sullivan (ombudsman reviewing the piece) can turn to everyday experience and see straight through the dance.

Except there would have been no need to reduce the temperature even just to 64. But I think you are on the right track, so to speak. The article is fake, though not necessarily in the most evil sense of the word. I think a big part of it is plain mental reluctance to deal with this new technology, which cannot use gasoline.

 

[SteveG3]

Norbert, I agree fake, but not necessarily evil. I also agree that with simple attention (full charges), the temperature needn't have been 64 at all.

My main point is about opening people's eyes unfamiliar with Tesla simply with common sense (particularly Margaret Sullivan). There are several items from Elon's blog that Broder did some impressive dancing around, often obscuring with technical suggestions and legalistic use of language (much like our old pal John Peterson does). The temperature data is something everyone can see with some reflection is not reporting, is contrary to fact, and is damaging to Tesla. Seeing Broder did this in a realm that is easily understandable I think is the pathway to recognizing the credible possibility of Tesla's contentions that he did this in areas not so easily understandable (due to technicality or circumstances vulnerable to dancing around facts given a skill at legalistic writing).

I could see how the points Broder made in the last blog could make it seem to Sullivan like there's no clear evidence of unacceptable journalism. I hope as this Times ombudsman looks over this case in the next few days she considers this point of temperature, and her common sense.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Actually after looking at comments at various publications, I'm not so sure Elon's post was that convincing to the general public (the latest one I looked is Ars Technica), although it did throw doubt on the original article. I personally think Elon may have gone a bit overboard in his accusations/assumptions because a lot of them would be hard to prove against Broder, esp. since he basically was able to explain away everything in his rebuttal posting (at NO point did he ever say he had any blame, anything that defies logic was blamed on advice from Tesla reps). And the Atlantic article, although many commenters there disagreed with it, it has been used a lot as defense for Broder.

And the people defending Broder are all trying to cast doubt on the data saying that Tesla won't release the raw data files to them.

 

[Norbert]

I read the Atlantic article a while ago. As I remember it looked at the blog without a critical examination of the Broder article itself, and the arguments it made did in general not hold up when giving them a closer look (with a critical examination of the Broder article, and Model S knowledge, in mind). However I don't feel like starting a "rebuttal". Although I'm wondering where the links is...

 

[rolosrevenge]

Actually after looking at comments at various publications, I'm not so sure Elon's post was that convincing to the general public (the latest one I looked is Ars Technica), although it did throw doubt on the original article. I personally think Elon may have gone a bit overboard in his accusations/assumptions because a lot of them would be hard to prove against Broder, esp. since he basically was able to explain away everything in his rebuttal posting (at NO point did he ever say he had any blame, anything that defies logic was blamed on advice from Tesla reps).

Except for the BS "I can't reconcile the speed difference, it might be that the tires were smaller and cruise control down hill can get you 15 mph faster than it's set to."

 

[dpeilow]

Except for the BS "I can't reconcile the speed difference, it might be that the tires were smaller and cruise control down hill can get you 15 mph faster than it's set to."

Yeah, I would hope even the most staunch 'car guys' would recognise that as bs.

 

[Martini]

Except for the BS "I can't reconcile the speed difference, it might be that the tires were smaller and cruise control down hill can get you 15 mph faster than it's set to."

Yep, that looks pretty bad for him. Also the heat data. At these moments I do like to recall Hanlon's Razor, though: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. It just makes life easier for me.

 

[Norbert]

Yep, that looks pretty bad for him. Also the heat data. At these moments I do like to recall Hanlon's Razor, though: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. It just makes life easier for me.

With all we know, we would give this story a very relative importance, even if it were the a honest account of a reasonable person.

However I think we should keep in mind that there may be many readers who might be led to think the car is a total disaster.

 

[doug]

And the people defending Broder are all trying to cast doubt on the data saying that Tesla won't release the raw data files to them.

Along the same lines, I'm curious if the Times would release Broder's supposedly detailed notes.

 

[brianman]

- He can't explain why he stopped charging when he was clearly on range.
- He can't explain why his speed assertions don't match the logs.
- He can't explain why his temperature/climate assertions don't match the logs.
- He conjures up absurd theories about a criminally broken cruise control that is counter to fact provided by Model S owners that have spoken in the 10s and have driven the car in at least the 100s.
- He conjures up absurd math regarding the impact of 19" vs. 21" tires.

What part of his story isn't fiction? Hell, maybe he even drove a Leaf rather than a Model S. I wouldn't be surprised.

If NYT could get it so wrong initially and then get it so wrong under review, what kind of journalistic value do they provide to anyone on this planet?

Geesh, I thought politics was bad. NYT is apparently worse.

 

[Norbert]

Along the same lines, I'm curious if the Times would release Broder's supposedly detailed notes.

Good idea!

Referring to posts further above, I just read the AtlanticWire article again, which was meanwhile updated based on Broder's response.

I think it is very one-sided, for example it just takes *any* explanation by Broder as a good explanation, and leaves it at that. (For example his explanation that a (really) sufficient charge would take too long, and that he would have wanted to act like an average person who would not want to wait either. Which actually is an admission of malice in my book.)

It is correct that the info in Tesla's blog does not always prove what it says... but then, it doesn't pretend to do so. It is not to be read as evidence (in court or so), at least not on all points that it makes. After all, Broder also doesn't provide proof for his excuses, claims and accusations of bad advice and car malfunctioning, either (as Doug indicates above).

 

[brianman]

And you think at the Regen=Low setting the Cruise Control can't keep the speed within 1mph of the set speed?

Off I go for another test.... j/k not tonite. Tomorrow though.

Update on this.

Some of you might remember the hill on my way home that I've reported about:
Overcharge

Here's what the energy consumption looks like going up that hill with cruise control set at 25mph:

Here's what the energy consumption looks like going down that hill with cruise control set at 45mph and Regen set to Low:

Here's what the energy consumption looks like with cruise control at 75mph on I-5S somewhere between Bellingham and Burlington (or maybe past Burlington, not totally sure) with Regen set to Low:

What do these 3 scenarios have in common? The vehicle never strayed more than 1mph from the set Cruise Control value. (Sidenote: see the pretty sine curve in the 3rd photo? Inefficient cruise control because it's so strict.)


Further proof that Mr. Broder is full of... fiction.


More details on this trip if you're bored:
Tesla Motors Club - Enthusiasts & Owners Forum

 

[quartzav]

What do these 3 scenarios have in common? The vehicle never strayed more than 1mph from the set Cruise Control value. (Sidenote: see the pretty sine curve in the 3rd photo? Inefficient cruise control because it's so strict.)


Further proof that Mr. Broder is full of... fiction.


More details on this trip if you're bored:
Tesla Motors Club - Enthusiasts & Owners Forum

Thank you! From people who don't have Model S to verify his lie :biggrin:

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Needless to say, Tesla has gotten a truckload or five of free press in the past week. On balance, do people think this was favorable or unfavorable for Tesla?

IMO this will be unfavourable because it's reinforced the idea that EV's are not "road trip" cars and that's one of Tesla's USP's. IMO this could/should have been dealt with in a much more professional manor from the very beginning... lots of Tesla people need to learn from this debacle if they want to capture the hearts and minds of the masses in the future.

 

[GSP]

I think this brouhaha helps Tesla.

A public arguement about whether a DC to Boston drive in an pure BEV is as effortless as a gas car or not, would not even have been thinkable 10 years ago. A lot of people that never have herd of Tesla, or even EVs, are now thinking they might be as good or better than gas cars.

Tesla is getting the maximum out of its $0 advertising budget! This lets them invest in Superchargers, future product, and stores instead, which is great for Telsa owners and future owners.