NYT article: Stalled on the EV Highway

[dsm363]

CNBC report: not bad, driver obviously likes the car, typical mistakes on the numbers, lots of joking about what to do at rest stops.

They will be following the route up to Milford during the morning, so more live reports to come.

Yeah. Decent job but again, throwing out wrong numbers. He did state 265 miles EPA the first time then repeated 285 miles multiple times. Also 85 kilowatts instead of 85 kWh. Didn't really dig into why Broder's claims other than he didn't charge all the way.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not arguing with you, but I'm a bit troubled by the inconsistency of this particular argument. When leaving a charging station with "enough" rated range, he was criticised for taking rated range too literally. When he left that morning with only 32 miles rated range, he was criticised for not taking the range estimate seriously enough. Broder may be a tool, but I'm not sure we can have it both ways. I repeat again that poor real-world range estimation is a serious problem once we get beyond the more savvy early adopters.

The real world estimate is not bad, he was just looking at the wrong number. The Rated range is based on the EPA 5 cycle test so not valid at 65-80 mph in winter with heat on. He never bothered to look at the projected range which was there, has nothing to do with savvy early adopters. That's like looking at your fuel gauge in a gas car and expecting it to last exactly the EPA highway estimate of 25 mpg even though you are driving 80 mph.

There is no explanation for taking off with less range than you need to get there. None.

 

[DrJohnM]

CNBC First SC stop LeBeaus Tesla Test Drive Update - CNBC

 

[Norbert]

I'm not arguing with you, but I'm a bit troubled by the inconsistency of this particular argument. When leaving a charging station with "enough" rated range but not charging fully, he was criticised for taking rated range too literally. When he left the second morning with only 32 miles rated range, he was criticised for not taking the range estimate seriously enough. Broder may be a tool, but I'm not sure we can have it both ways. I repeat again that poor real-world range estimation is a serious problem once we get beyond the more savvy early adopters.

Not sure why you think we can't have it both ways. In this case that's easy. He knew from the second leg (if not already from the first leg) of the trip, from experience, that the real range in his driving conditions is below the "rated" range displayed next to the battery image. He also states at the beginning of the article that the range figures apply to specific conditions only. He never claims to actually have believed that the displayed range is anything else than an indicator of the battery's state, but leads the reader into thinking that the displayed "rated" range would justify such a (false) expectation of being an all-knowing prediction (or of being an absolute minimum).

- - - Updated - - -

The real world estimate is not bad, he was just looking at the wrong number. The Rated range is based on the EPA 5 cycle test so not valid at 65-80 mph in winter with heat on. He never bothered to look at the projected range which was there, has nothing to do with savvy early adopters. That's like looking at your fuel gauge in a gas car and expecting it to last exactly the EPA highway estimate of 25 mpg even though you are driving 80 mph.

There is no explanation for taking off with less range than you need to get there. None.

Right, he never even mentions the "projected" range available in the energy display.

 

[Jaff]

There is not only "no explanation" for it, no honest person(s) should attempt to "defend it" imo...(Sullivan)

The real world estimate is not bad, he was just looking at the wrong number. The Rated range is based on the EPA 5 cycle test so not valid at 65-80 mph in winter with heat on. He never bothered to look at the projected range which was there, has nothing to do with savvy early adopters. That's like looking at your fuel gauge in a gas car and expecting it to last exactly the EPA highway estimate of 25 mpg even though you are driving 80 mph.

There is no explanation for taking off with less range than you need to get there. None.

 

[Norbert]

CNBC First SC stop LeBeaus Tesla Test Drive Update - CNBC

Seems to have enjoyed the drive so far !

 

[Al Sherman]

Seems to have enjoyed the drive so far !

Yes. He seems more likeable than Broder too. Maybe that's just because I'm slightly biased.:wink:

 

[Martini]

Not sure why you think we can't have it both ways. In this case that's easy. He knew from the second leg (if not already from the first leg) of the trip, from experience, that the real range in his driving conditions is below the "rated" range displayed next to the battery image. He also states at the beginning of the article that the range figures apply to specific conditions only. He never claims to actually have believed that the displayed range is anything else than an indicator of the battery's state, but leads the reader into thinking that the displayed "rated" range would justify such a (false) expectation of being an all-knowing prediction (or of being an absolute minimum).

Yeah, sure, common sense would lead a reasonable person to do the right thing in most cases. But there's a reason we like things that are "fool-proof". If Paris Hilton bought a Tesla, would we trust her never to strand herself? (sorry for the drive-by slam, Ms. Hilton, if you are reading this)

 

[Norbert]

Yeah, sure, common sense would lead a reasonable person to do the right thing in most cases. But there's a reason we like things that are "fool-proof". If Paris Hilton bought a Tesla, would we trust her never to strand herself? (sorry for the drive-by slam, Ms. Hilton, if you are reading this)

New York City mayor wants 10,000 new electric car charging spots : TreeHugger

If other cities (and districts) follow NYC's example, there will be more charging stations than gas stations...

 

[Yuri_G]

Yeah, sure, common sense would lead a reasonable person to do the right thing in most cases. But there's a reason we like things that are "fool-proof". If Paris Hilton bought a Tesla, would we trust her never to strand herself? (sorry for the drive-by slam, Ms. Hilton, if you are reading this)

Can she charge her cell phone?

 

[Mphmd]

Dear Mr Broader
Perhaps the laws of physics cease to exist in your battery. Were these magic volts? Did you buy them from the same guy who sold Jack his beanstalk beans?

 

[Norbert]

Next live report from CNBC: Driving from one Supercharger to the next: (cruise control apparently on 65 mph to 70 mph)

Teslas Test Drive: Charge! - CNBC

 

[NigelM]

Bloomberg's take on it:

Elon Musk vindicated....

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/ny-times-acknowledges-tesla-review-problems

 

[dsm363]

Yeah, sure, common sense would lead a reasonable person to do the right thing in most cases. But there's a reason we like things that are "fool-proof". If Paris Hilton bought a Tesla, would we trust her never to strand herself? (sorry for the drive-by slam, Ms. Hilton, if you are reading this)

How many people does AAA bring gas to on the side of the road because they ran out? There is virtually no product in the world that is 'fool proof'. Yes, until EVs have 500+ mile real world range they will require more care and planning but given a modicum of intelligence and thought, it isn't an issue. Anyone can misjudge their range and running out could happen to any one of us given right circumstances but it would be rare.

 

[shokunin]

From Anandtech.com - Tesla S temperature on EV efficiency and range

From anandtech.com

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6759/tesla-model-s-effects-of-temperature-on-ev-efficiency-and-range

Article is pretty basic but at least tried to explain some the impact that heating and cold weather have on EVs.

 

[Joyrider]

A thought about the NYT article I haven't seen mentioned. One of the ways Broder misrepresented the Model S was his "need" for numerous phone calls to Tesla during the trip. Really? He made it seem as though the car was sooo hard to understand that if you didn't have a Tesla rep on speed dial you'd have no clue how to get it out of the parking lot...that there was no way to figure out how to make this trip without the factory baby sitting you on speaker phone. OK, I am exaggerating. But constantly calling Tesla was part of his bag of slant tricks...a another way someone reading the article is left feeling the Model S is not only unsuited for a road trip, but indeed a car no non-geek driver should, or would want, to own.

- - - Updated - - -

I posted the below in another thread, but thought I'd add it here because I was so clever.

Problems With Precision and Judgment, but Not Integrity, in Tesla Test - NYTimes.com

So it's man slaughter, not murder...

 

[onlinespending]

A thought about the NYT article I haven't seen mentioned. One of the ways Broder misrepresented the Model S was his "need" for numerous phone calls to Tesla during the trip. Really? He made it seem as though the car was sooo hard to understand that if you didn't have a Tesla rep on speed dial you'd have no clue how to get it out of the parking lot...that there was no way to figure out how to make this trip without the factory baby sitting you on speaker phone. OK, I am exaggerating. But constantly calling Tesla was part of his bag of slant tricks...a another way someone reading the article is left feeling the Model S is not only unsuited for a road trip, but indeed a car no non-geek driver should, or would want, to own.

Good point. He definitely tried to make it clear (in some obvious and not so obvious ways) that owning the Model S is an unbearable hassle.

 

[Rodolfo Paiz]

My comment to Ms. Sullivan's post is below. It's amazing how limiting 1500 characters can be.

"Dear Ms. Sullivan:

Mr. Broder's "facts" are sufficiently far from the car's data logs to cast doubt on the accuracy of his reporting. But a writer uses more than facts: intention, word choice, innuendo and insinuation are all powerful tools in the wordsmith's trade. And here is the true failure or Mr. Broder's article and defense, and your own response to the matter; even assuming no malice aforethought, this article goes to great lengths to cast Mr. Broder as a helpless victim and to place all blame squarely on Tesla: car, charger, and company. Fair and unbiased? Hardly.

With climate control set to 70-74F (usually) or 64F (at worst), Mr. Broder writes of how "my feet were freezing and my knuckles were turning white". Really, a New Yorker's feet freezing at 64F? He also "...drove, slowly, to Stonington..." at 60-80mph. Slowly? And at no time did he "limp along at 45mph". Lastly, no "normal driver" would EVER deliberately leave a fuel stop with only half the fuel required to reach his destination. Ever.

More infrastructure is required before EV's overcome the convenience of gasoline for long-distance travel, though they are already superior for daily driving. But this article tells us more about Mr. Broder's personal failings as both driver and writer than it does about the subject matter. And that, Ms. Sullivan, is not just "casual and imprecise notes". It's a failure of journalistic integrity on his part, and a failure of quality control and moral courage on yours."

 

[Seegem]

My comment to Ms. Sullivan's post is below. It's amazing how limiting 1500 characters can be.

"Dear Ms. Sullivan:

Mr. Broder's "facts" are sufficiently far from the car's data logs to cast doubt on the accuracy of his reporting. But a writer uses more than facts: intention, word choice, innuendo and insinuation are all powerful tools in the wordsmith's trade. And here is the true failure or Mr. Broder's article and defense, and your own response to the matter; even assuming no malice aforethought, this article goes to great lengths to cast Mr. Broder as a helpless victim and to place all blame squarely on Tesla: car, charger, and company. Fair and unbiased? Hardly.

With climate control set to 70-74F (usually) or 64F (at worst), Mr. Broder writes of how "my feet were freezing and my knuckles were turning white". Really, a New Yorker's feet freezing at 64F? He also "...drove, slowly, to Stonington..." at 60-80mph. Slowly? And at no time did he "limp along at 45mph". Lastly, no "normal driver" would EVER deliberately leave a fuel stop with only half the fuel required to reach his destination. Ever.

More infrastructure is required before EV's overcome the convenience of gasoline for long-distance travel, though they are already superior for daily driving. But this article tells us more about Mr. Broder's personal failings as both driver and writer than it does about the subject matter. And that, Ms. Sullivan, is not just "casual and imprecise notes". It's a failure of journalistic integrity on his part, and a failure of quality control and moral courage on yours."

WOW, well done +1 and +1 again!

 

[teslasguy]

Good article from The Street...
Tesla Triumphs but Questions Remain - TheStreet

 

[Snowdog]

My remaining question. Tesla Support really that awful?

This story finally prompted me to register so I could post here. I have been a Tesla Fan since the Roadster and someday hope to own one (though it would be a Gen 3 or later).

Right from the first story and ever subsequent defense/rebuttal/analysis etc... I read them all and one question that I had from the beginning, still remains.

Could Tesla support really be that awful. I see no revealed defects in the car, nor the superchargers, but if half of what Broder said is true he received almost inconceivably wrong support when he called.

Turn the heater on for half an hour in an unplugged stationary car, to improve range? In what universe does that make sense?

This is the one thing I would like Tesla to address. Because I don't think Broder's story really trashes the car half as much as it trashes Tesla support, and that seems to have gone largely unchallenged.