Octopus Energy Saving Sessions

[Stranger Dings]

Does anyone know how the Octopus ”Power Hour” energy saving sessions are actually calculated?

I’ve taken part in all of them, but the results just seem totally random.

I’ve had sessions where we’ve switched off as much as we can and gone out, only to be told that we didn’t manage to save anything.

Some sessions, we’ve made very small savings, Including one where virtually everything was switched off and the whole family was in another country.

One session I forgot it was happening despite signing up, only to be told I’d managed to save 93% of my normal usage and be credited with over £16 off!

I’ll continue to sign up for them and don’t really do it expecting to save much as we are already quite energy efficient. It all just seems so random.

 

[phil4]

But how can it be fully automated for everyone with batteries of all makes?

Do we need an automatic additional export payment for responding to frequency drops? Or a single government run service that converts a meter ID into details of the person's dramatic inport/export rates so a battery can respond without needing to integrate with every energy vendor?

I think this sort of thing only works when people are paid significant amounts. Sure if you can automate the battery part there's no "hardship" for the house, no problems cooking dinner, no need to the turn the lights off. But all this charge and dump is cycles on your battery, that if only being paid 15p might not be worth it.

For what it's worth though, I think that's what Intelligent Flux is. Because there is no battery API standard, unsurprisingly they're all different, so I think that only work with Giv at the moment.

 

[ringi]

I think the profit per kwh exported have to be significantly more then the cost of importing power between the saving session and start of next cheap rate. Battery cycles don't concern me as it is using the day's charge to help the grid over a short time rarher then using the battery as normal to move all house load to off peak.

Intelligent Flux does not work for people who can usefully put lot of overnight charge into a EV likewise Flux (unless very large PV install in summer). They also don't work over winter for people with a heatpump.

Octopus IO gives a winter saving of over 20p per kwh of battery capacity unless capacity is significantly over what needed for a day's none cheap rate power. The others give about half that profit per kwh for selling power at peak time you brought at cheap rate. Octopus IO is also simple (set and forget) and not too bad for someone with moderate PV over sumer.

(Flux no longer have stanard rate import being cheaper/equal then peak exports, so battery settings have to depend on expected home usage.)

 

[phil4]

I think the profit per kwh exported have to be significantly more then the cost of importing power between the saving session and start of next cheap rate. Battery cycles don't concern me as it is using the day's charge to help the grid over a short time rarher then using the battery as normal to move all house load to off peak.

I agree, but I can't see them extending effort to automate something that only occurs a few times a year. I think you'd find them more likely (as intelligent flux) doing it throughout the year, but the margins would be very thin, so not worth it.

Intelligent Flux does not work for people who can usefully put lot of overnight charge into a EV likewise Flux (unless very large PV install in summer). They also don't work over winter for people with a heatpump.

I agree, I couldn't make any sense of using flux, when I could power the whole house for a lot less, and didn't have a massive solar array. As you say, I think it works for people with no EV, low house use and massive solar arrays. The closer to that ideal, the better it works... but throw an EV into the mix and I think it swings the other way.

Octopus IO gives a winter saving of over 20p per kwh of battery capacity unless capacity is significantly over what needed for a day's none cheap rate power. The others give about half that profit per kwh for selling power at peak time you brought at cheap rate. Octopus IO is also simple (set and forget) and not too bad for someone with moderate PV over sumer.

(Flux no longer have stanard rate import being cheaper/equal then peak exports, so battery settings have to depend on expected home usage.)

Intelligent Go changing their export tariff was a game changer for me, if we have a summer next year I suspect it'll be transformational.

 

[ACarneiro]

Intelligent Go changing their export tariff was a game changed for me, if we have a summer next year I suspect it'll be transformational.

I agree. It'll be interesting to see if they keep those generous feed-in rates once the fixed term 12 months ends.
I think they may well be testing the waters and see just how much solar power there is installed out there....

 

[Mrklaw]

Octopus said they can't measure my export uniless I have a SEG setup with them. Even though they can see my export MPAN and confirm its active. That seems stupid. It means if you have a home storage battery but no solar, you're unable to take part (well unable to benefit from it, you coudl still choose to export for free I guess). And if like me you have FIT and Deemed export and don't want to change to SEG, you're also stuffed.

Why not let you activate the export MPAN and just use it as reference for sessions like this? Surely they want as wide a user group as possible to help them bid for more capacity with their 'virtual power plant'?

 

[ACarneiro]

Octopus said they can't measure my export uniless I have a SEG setup with them. Even though they can see my export MPAN and confirm its active. That seems stupid. It means if you have a home storage battery but no solar, you're unable to take part (well unable to benefit from it, you coudl still choose to export for free I guess). And if like me you have FIT and Deemed export and don't want to change to SEG, you're also stuffed.

Why not let you activate the export MPAN and just use it as reference for sessions like this? Surely they want as wide a user group as possible to help them bid for more capacity with their 'virtual power plant'?

I suspect it may well be data protection issues.
It's quite possible that "The Industry" won't let just any company access metering data unless you've got a contract with them so that rogue companies can't start harvesting usage data to try inferring your household habits. Seems reasonable but a pain for someone in your specific circumstances....

 

[Pink Duck]

Third-party apps such as Loop Energy can gain access to smart meter import and gas values (if provider permits) but seems export wasn't designed-in or implemented sufficiently by SMETS2/Smart DCC for that to be monitored externally.

 

[Mrklaw]

I suspect it may well be data protection issues.
It's quite possible that "The Industry" won't let just any company access metering data unless you've got a contract with them so that rogue companies can't start harvesting usage data to try inferring your household habits. Seems reasonable but a pain for someone in your specific circumstances....

Loop/bright etc apps seem to be able to access my half hourly import data just fine with me checking a simple box.

Givenergy/Axel do seem to be able to access the export MPAN data externally but seems you need a SEG for it to be fully active?

so still plenty of data sharing going on (with permissions obv)

 

[ACarneiro]

Loop/bright etc apps seem to be able to access my half hourly import data just fine with me checking a simple box.

Givenergy/Axel do seem to be able to access the export MPAN data externally but seems you need a SEG for it to be fully active?

so still plenty of data sharing going on (with permissions obv)

Thank you, I hadn't heard of those.

Just installed Loop and it seems like you can sign up for "turn down and save" directly from the app. Not sure how that works, but might be worth you having a look at it, perhaps?

 

[Js1977]

Thank you, I hadn't heard of those.

Just installed Loop and it seems like you can sign up for "turn down and save" directly from the app. Not sure how that works, but might be worth you having a look at it, perhaps?

As a heads up for others, its also worth baring in mind that if you cant get these apps to show your data (hugo also being one of them), it simply means that your meter is not on the DCC network.

You can check if yours is here

 

[Pink Duck]

While it confirms if the meter has been registered on to the Smart DCC it doesn’t confirm whether it is operating normally.

Also unable to be used with an Export MPAN. UKPN still also not including that in their address/meter lookup email service

 

[ACarneiro]

As a heads up for others, its also worth baring in mind that if you cant get these apps to show your data (hugo also being one of them), it simply means that your meter is not on the DCC network.

You can check if yours is here

Interestingly it says my Gas meter isn't on the DCC even though it sends metering data to Octopus (albeit in a really intermittent and haphazard way).
This whole smart meter crap is a complete shambles, is the impression I'm getting. No wonder Octopus are trialling the Home Mini...

 

[yessuz]

I can see in my account how much I have actually exported during yesterday's even.

it looks like significantly less than expected/aticipated...
sadly i had to feed the family

 

[phil4]

This whole smart meter crap is a complete shambles, is the impression I'm getting. No wonder Octopus are trialling the Home Mini...

I totally agree. While mine works ok -most- of the time, the number of times I've had issues, including needing firmware updates, missing data gaps etc. In my view it's not fit for purpose. It's too unreliable. As you say, no wonder Octopus are trying to persuade Mini's to be usable.

 

[Pink Duck]

The Octopus Mini is only designed as an IHD replacement for live readings and isn't used as part of official metering.

The whole smart metering fiasco could have been vastly better had consideration been given to secured Wi-Fi communications.

 

[Js1977]

Interestingly it says my Gas meter isn't on the DCC even though it sends metering data to Octopus (albeit in a really intermittent and haphazard way).
This whole smart meter crap is a complete shambles, is the impression I'm getting. No wonder Octopus are trialling the Home Mini...

Probably quite a few smart meters which aren't on the DCC. My electricity one isn't as its an early Secure branded unit. I rely on the Octopus watch app these days (even though its not compatible with IO) to monitor wether Octopus is getting my reading or not and Ive recently had to nudge them as there was no readings for nearly a couple of weeks. Its a pain because when that happens, I dont get the bill and it interferes with my financial OCD

 

[Js1977]

The Octopus Mini is only designed as an IHD replacement for live readings and isn't used as part of official metering.

The whole smart metering fiasco could have been vastly better had consideration been given to secured Wi-Fi communications.

The problem with wi-fi is that most people have the wi-fi as it came with their router and this is a real pain when either their router develops a problem and you are given a new one or when you find a new deal and you get a new router as part of the process.

When I used to be in the trade many years ago as the internet started booming and there was no wireless, my advice always was not to use the email address that the ISP gave you and get a microsoft one instead, purely on the basis that if they ever changed provider, that email address would cease to exist.

 

[Zilla91]

my advice always was not to use the email address that the ISP gave you and get a microsoft one instead, purely on the basis that if they ever changed provider, that email address would cease to exist.

Very sensible advice.

 

[ACarneiro]

Ive recently had to nudge them as there was no readings for nearly a couple of weeks. Its a pain because when that happens, I dont get the bill and it interferes with my financial OCD

Absolutely this. Sent them an email earlier this morning as I'm missing Gas data (intermittently) as far back as the 29th of August.
Bearing in mind that one of the big reasons for the push to smart metering was so that consumers could "be in control" and have a good grasp of their usage, this seems to be falling quite badly.

The problem with wi-fi is that most people have the wi-fi as it came with their router and this is a real pain when either their router develops a problem and you are given a new one or when you find a new deal and you get a new router as part of the process.

Well, yes. But I would imagine that there is a non-trivial number of modestly tech-savvy people who would have little trouble changing the settings if they were to get a new router with different credentials. Even if that's only 30% of the population (likely more, I should think), that would be 30% fewer people clogging whatever crappy national network the DCC is using and 30% fewer people with intermittent metering opening support tickets.
Ultimately, having the choice would be ideal (I note my IHD can connect to my WiFi happily and it is trivial to set up and change, I just don't think it does anything with the connection).

The Octopus Mini is only designed as an IHD replacement for live readings and isn't used as part of official metering.

I suppose only Octopus can really know for sure what their intent is, but I doubt that it's "only an IHD replacement".
It gives them orders of magnitude more granularity on individual usage and I suspect, being the sort of "big data" company that they are, they'll be looking at that with interest.
Also, as far as I can tell, the Home Mini pulls the data directly from the meter, so why not use it for billing (cross referencing with DCC data eventually, perhaps)? I wonder if there are concerns with tampering the data....
It's interesting because they seem to have stopped pushing the Home Mini so maybe it didn't quite do what they wanted it to...

 

[Js1977]

Very sensible advice.

Thank you. I think in general people dont realise how much they rely on their wi-fi these days and how important it is to retain they SSID and password long term. Unfortunately its not a known or easy process for most people and even though my best advice would be to invest in a separate access point in case the router gets changed for some reason, it still involves initial setup and financial outlay.