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OEM CCS adapter now available to order in North America, Retrofit for older cars coming in 2023
- Thread starter MP3Mike
- Start date
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
They don't have to say "not supported" explicitly, if it's not in the specs, it's not supported. For example if a charger doesn't list CHAdeMO support, it doesn't support it. If it doesn't list Tesla protocol support, it doesn't support it. As others pointed out, NACS does not include Tesla protocol support.
Here's an example of a charger with NACS support added, and in the protocol line there is no Tesla protocol:
"Charging Protocols CCS1, CHAdeMO 1.2"
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Gauss Guzzler
Safety Score = 42
Exactly. That Terra charger datasheet states that it supports both CHAdeMO and CCS protocols - the two protocols used by Tesla. And it can be configured with a variety of connectors, like NACS or whatever. So if it can run the CHAdeMO protocol on a NACS connector, doesn't that suggest older models are supported?
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
No, older Teslas don't support CHAdeMO protocol, that's why Tesla had to make an active adapter. The spec sheet would need to say it supports Tesla's protocol to work with older Teslas.
I'm pretty such you are confused about the protocols. Although CHAdeMO uses a CANBUS also, it is not the same as Tesla's protocol! It's not even pin compatible.
Gauss Guzzler
Safety Score = 42
Well the active adapter is just for pilot line fiddling. The protocol itself is CHAdeMO.
israndy
Supercharger Hunter
You sure like replying to people, too bad it's not with useful info. Seems like whatever people say you figure out a way to say the reverse, no thinking, just say the reverse. It's crazy the theories your brain keeps coming up with. How many times do we all need to tell you that NACS is NOT Tesla proprietary charging and Teslas that don't speak CCS will not be able to use NACS, sheesh! "Oh, but the moon is in orbit of the Earth so ALL Teslas can charge everywhere"
I will occasionally post bad info because I hope to goad others into posting the correct info that I don't know, I find it works better than posting a question looking for the same info, but you are beating a dead horse.
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Good point.
CHAdeMO = CHAdeMO Plug speaking CHAdeMO
CCS = CCS Plug speaking CCS
Tesla = Tesla Plug speaking a variation of CHAdeMO
NACS = Tesla Plug speaking CCS
davewill
Active Member
Hey I get it. I wanted the shift to NACS to mean my non CCS Tesla could use third party DC charging, too. But it won't unless I pony up for the upgrade... Which is probably part of the reason Tesla is refitting the older cars at all.
There is someone working on adding CCS support to the Leaf. And there is no reason you couldn't buy a NACS port to hook up to that.
I've heard of a few folks whose OBC died and did not want to spend money for a replacement OBC... instead, relied on CHAdeMO charging. As CHAdeMO charging will be harder to come by, this mod will definitely extend the life of the Leaf.
Generally, it is best to setup the account with the CCS1 charge provider, ahead of time using a PC and provide a credit card # for billing, then install the needed app on one's cellphone and verify that it's connecting properly. Test access to the charge provider at a local CCS1 charger, rather than on the road. You can use plugshare to scout out which CCS1 charge providers will be used when road tripping. Trying to install a cellphone app at the charger is always problematic. Sometimes the charge provider can issue an RFID card, and these are very useful and quite reliable, CC readers tend to be unreliable but cellphone apps seem to work well but you will need a cellphone data plan.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
The "pilot line fiddling" you describe is part of the CHAdeMO protocol handshake. Without it, it's not CHAdeMO. In the video link, he also describes differences even during the digital part of the handshake, so there are differences even beyond that.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Flow-diagram-of-the-CHAdeMO-chagrining-protocol_fig4_319162700
There are also analog pins Tesla has to emulate to meet the CHAdeMO protocol (that's why Tesla needed that adapter). The NACS connector only has 5 pins, the CHAdeMO has 10 (all of which are in use for DC charging, unlike with CCS1 where the two AC power pins are not used during DC charging).
If a charger says it's compatible with CHAdeMO and doesn't say it's compatible with Tesla, it's not compatible with Tesla! They are different protocols even if there are similarities.
Thanks. I live in Canada, and did this on the night I got the adapter. I installed a few apps that I expected to use so that this wouldn’t be an issue (Ivy, Electrify Canada, Circuit Electrique). The problem wasn’t the apps themselves (they seem to be pretty smooth). It would be that a) the charger itself is broken or not responding, or b) I connect and and activate but charge doesn’t start (after multiple attempts).
The ones that have worked (Circuit Eletrique in Quebec worked the one time I used it) are usually much slower than supercharging (yes, even when using the method of preconditioning for a good amount before - with a supercharger set in navigation destination) - they deliver lower KW than advertised, or they are older hardware and top out at a lower wattage (50 or 100 KW).
I’ve found the Ivy Chargers on the 401 to be very iffy. They are conveniently located but not reliable. 2 out of 3 locations did not have a functioning charger on my last road trip.
Gauss Guzzler
Safety Score = 42
The "protocol" is CHAdeMO or CCS.
The "carrier" is CAN, Powerline, or analog.
The "connector" is NACS, CCS1, etc.
Tesla's "pilot line fiddling" is a way of using any of these protocols on any of these connectors with far fewer pins and there's obviously no need for this to be part of the J3400 standard and implemented into every new Buick. It was just a hack that enabled them to use the established CHAdeMO protocol and CAN carrier back in 2012 without having to actually use the silly CHAdeMO plug.
The "theory" is that non-Tesla stations won't employ the "fiddler" for some reason but thus far, no one has cited any evidence or indication of this mysterious reason other than the fact that J3400 doesn't actually force them to. Meanwhile, capitalism suggests that charging stations would likely spend the extra $10 to get a million more customers. And Tesla has strongly promoted "open" charging standards with no indication that they would oppose 3rd party pilot line fiddling.
So what the hell are all you guys arguing? That charging stations hate profit? That Tesla has vowed to cripple NACS compatibility? That it violates the laws of physics? Someone, please, offer just one explanation that doesn't fit into one of these three categories.
The "carrier" is CAN, Powerline, or analog.
The "connector" is NACS, CCS1, etc.
Tesla's "pilot line fiddling" is a way of using any of these protocols on any of these connectors with far fewer pins and there's obviously no need for this to be part of the J3400 standard and implemented into every new Buick. It was just a hack that enabled them to use the established CHAdeMO protocol and CAN carrier back in 2012 without having to actually use the silly CHAdeMO plug.
The "theory" is that non-Tesla stations won't employ the "fiddler" for some reason but thus far, no one has cited any evidence or indication of this mysterious reason other than the fact that J3400 doesn't actually force them to. Meanwhile, capitalism suggests that charging stations would likely spend the extra $10 to get a million more customers. And Tesla has strongly promoted "open" charging standards with no indication that they would oppose 3rd party pilot line fiddling.
So what the hell are all you guys arguing? That charging stations hate profit? That Tesla has vowed to cripple NACS compatibility? That it violates the laws of physics? Someone, please, offer just one explanation that doesn't fit into one of these three categories.
I am sorry to hear that. On our recent trip from BC to Niagara Falls and back, we were only unable to use CCS1 once, in Marathon ON, where the 2 PetroCan CCS1 (and a J1772) had been turned off (and I didn't read the comments on plugshare!). Generally, I never use CCS1 when I am in a hurry if there are Tesla SCs available, but I will use them when they are convenient for meals (even a 22kw or 44kw DCFC is handy for a meal break) or shopping, or if they're required for my planned route.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Putting aside that the video you linked said even the digital handshake also has differences (putting aside all the analog pins), which means even that part of the protocol is different:
1) It won't cost just $10 to implement. This is not just slapping on a NACS connector on the CCS module and calling it a day or slapping on a NACS connector on the CHAdeMO module and calling it a day, it's having both CAN and PLC support on the CCS module and then implementing Tesla's handshake.
2) Nothing has changed in regards to it still being a closed proprietary standard, except Tesla even purposefully didn't include it as an option in NACS, which tells the manufacturers Tesla has no desire for third parties to use it easily
3) Past history. They didn't try to implement it natively in the past, even EVgo just used a CHAdeMO adapter and most charging companies didn't even bother to have such an adapter even though Tesla was already a large majority of the market.
4) Tesla has released a retrofit for older vehicles to make them "CCS enabled" so the population of legacy vehicles is only shrinking.
Judging from the survey in this forum, "CCS enabled" started in second half of 2020 for Model 3 (earlier for Model Y, but let's use this to be conservative) and paused second half 2021 (actually July 2021 to October 2021, but say second half to be conservative), adding in about 37k sales for 2012-2014, the Tesla vehicles sold without "CCS enabled" in the US is around 780k. The current CCS enabled is about 1.37M (and growing). I think the latter is a "good enough" market for charger manufacturers and charge network providers.
CCS Adapter for North America
https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/tesla-us-sales-figures/
5) I was just in a thread about the Tesla AC handshake and people being confused when using it on a non-Tesla (not knowing to wait 30 seconds for the fallback to J1772). Trying to do such a thing on DC would be a disaster in terms of customer support.
Again, I will repeat: there have been no charger manufacturers that have announced Tesla protocol support. If they supported it, they wouldn't be silent about it. Anyways, call us back when a third party manufacturer actually builds a charger that supports Tesla's proprietary protocol.
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Gauss Guzzler
Safety Score = 42
OK, let's break down these points:
0) It would violate the laws of physics
1) Corporations hate profit
2) Tesla has vowed to cripple NACS compatibility
3) It hasn't happened yet
4) Corporations hate profit
5) It would violate the laws of physics
6) It hasn't happened yet
Kudos for the creative use of "it hasn't happened yet" as proof of why it could never happen in the future - I didn't see that one coming. But still all your other points fall squarely within the 3 categories I defined, right?
0) It would violate the laws of physics
1) Corporations hate profit
2) Tesla has vowed to cripple NACS compatibility
3) It hasn't happened yet
4) Corporations hate profit
5) It would violate the laws of physics
6) It hasn't happened yet
Kudos for the creative use of "it hasn't happened yet" as proof of why it could never happen in the future - I didn't see that one coming. But still all your other points fall squarely within the 3 categories I defined, right?
