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Ontario Canada : overnight 2c/kWh EV charging price plan

Discussion in 'Canada' started by SmartElectric, Aug 29, 2017.

  1. SmartElectric

    SmartElectric Active Member

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    Ontario Canada : overnight 2c/kWh EV charging price plan

    Advantage Power Pricing | Alectra Utilities

    A subset of Ontario utility companies are participating in a program to provide flexible price plans.

    Quote : "Phase 1 - Risk free, save up to $500
    September 1, 2017 – December 31, 2017
    During the first phase, you will be able to
    earn savings by taking advantage of the new
    trial rates. At the end of this phase, you will
    receive an on-bill credit for the amount that
    you’ve saved over this period, up to a maximum
    of $500."
     
    • Informative x 2
  2. wayner

    wayner Active Member

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    This is just for Alectra - is this available to anyone in the province or do you have to be in their specific service area? Does Toronto Hydro offer something similar. It would work for me as my usage is highly concentrated in off-peak. From the doc it says "Evenings, weekends and holidays are always Off-peak. Advantage Power Pricing schedule and price changes happen November 1 and May 1 of each year. Visit our web page for updated schedules." So does that mean no super off-peak overnight on weekends?
     
  3. SmartElectric

    SmartElectric Active Member

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  4. wayner

    wayner Active Member

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    #4 wayner, Aug 29, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2017
    This pricing scheme also might facilitate Powerwall time of day arbitrage. I believe the Powerwall 2 has capacity of 13.5kWh. The super offpeak to peak difference in this plan is $0.164. So if you charged every day during super offpeak and discharged during peak you could save $2.21/day or (assuming 250 days per year) $553.50/yr. Does that make it worth it to buy a Powerwall?

    edit - Not only would you save on your power bill doing this you also would have battery backup, at least during the day after your Powerwall is fully charged.

    edit - I just realized that I didn't include HST so that saving is actually 13% higher - but then you will be having to pay HST on your battery, etc as well.
     
  5. SmartElectric

    SmartElectric Active Member

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    I am currently working through the process to implement "load displacement" solar.
    Meaning, I wouldn't be paid for surplus, so I am designing the system to completely and effectively offset only my peak daily load.
    Savings look like 5 year payoff, with no payments to me, just producing/shedding the power I would otherwise pay more $ for.
     
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  6. mknox

    mknox Well-Known Member

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    #6 mknox, Aug 29, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2017
    1. This probably only applies to the RPP commodity price and not the Distribution and Regulatory charges. Although not shown clearly on the bill, the commodity price is uplifted by the utility specific Loss Factor.

    2. Alectra was recently formed when Horizon, Enersource and PowerStream amalgamated and, in turn, purchased Hydro One Brampton. I don't think all of their new service territory is involved (they still have different billing systems and metering technologies). My guess it is in the former PowerStream territory as they were always the most progressive in these types of things.
     
    • Helpful x 3
    • Informative x 1
  7. wayner

    wayner Active Member

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    @mike - how do you think they would feel about TOU arbitraging with batteries with this plan? Once you start to create very large TOU deltas that can become economically attractive, especially if you are inclined to buy a battery for backup when the grid is down.
     
  8. wayner

    wayner Active Member

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    That works for current peak pricing with Toronto Hydro? I am surprised at that as the economics of microFIT at the 2017 pricing is marginal at a microFIT rate of about $0.30/kWh - which is still quite a bit above the all-in peak cost. What capacity are you getting?
     
  9. mknox

    mknox Well-Known Member

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    I don't think this would be a problem.

    The LDC's revenue is generated from the Delivery charges (currently partially fixed and partially volumetric), which are not time-specific so it doesn't matter when power is consumed from a revenue point of view. Further, the OEB has directed LDCs to move to fully fixed Delivery Charges over the next few years anyway. Aside from that, the LDC would probably appreciate you drawing power from the local grid at off-peak times to help alleviate strain on local infrastructure.

    The only downside I can see, and its a big one, is local congestion if everyone starts charging Powerwalls (and EVs) at the same time in the same neighborhood. Smart scheduled charging systems are already being investigated for EVs, and if home batteries also become ubiquitous, some sort of scheduling may be needed there too. It could push the local grid "peak period" into these evening hours.

    It's also good from a provincial generation point of view. Don't need those expensive gas peaker plants spooling up as often if loads can be shifted and the demand curve flattened out.

    I actually already arbitrage (although I'm not really "selling" back) myself. My electric water heater runs only during off-peak and then I use the hot water throughout the day. In summer, I "pre-cool" my house by setting the a/c lower in the early morning hours, then I "coast" through the day and the compressor doesn't usually need to come on until after 7:00 pm (sometimes after 5:00 pm - mid-peak) weekdays. And, of course, I charge my car during off-peak periods and drive it during on-peak periods. My utility bill usually shows my consumption at about 80-85% Off Peak with the balance Mid and On-Peak. So I have two "thermal batteries" and one "conventional" one!

    Now, I suppose if everyone started doing this, the provincial peak periods may shift, but that would just mean that price models would have to be adjusted to reflect any new reality.
     
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  10. wayner

    wayner Active Member

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    Thanks Mike - the other way for everyone to do this is to have some sort of a randomizer that kicks off EV charging. At least in the summer I don't care when my car charges, as long as it is done by 7:10am when I leave. Or have some other algorithm, tied to something like the last digit of your license plate - not unlike congestion vehicle restrictions in some cities in places like China. For example, if your license plate starts with 0 or 1 your charging starts at 11pm. If it starts with 2 or 3 you start charging at Midnight, 4 or 5 and you start at 1 am, etc.
     
  11. setipoo

    setipoo Breaker of Chains and Mother of Dragons

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    Someone please help me with the math!!

    If i need just one powerwall ($8750+$2700 installation=$11450), does it mean my payback is 20 years? ($11450/$550)
     
  12. wayner

    wayner Active Member

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    I didn't realize that Powerwalls were that expensive and you probably highballed the installation but you are in the right neighbourhood. When I did the calculation when the Powerwall was first introduced the payback was more like 30 years, but that was with about a $0.09 peak to offpeak delta.

    The other thing to price in is the value of a power backup. Does the Powerwall replace a whole home generator and if so what value is there in that? Generators cost from $2-5k but they will last longer than a battery if you have an extended outage - like some folks had in Toronto in the Christmas 2013 ice storm or the Quebec ice storm of 1998. And I imagine installation costs will be similar so a battery that "makes" you $550 a year for $8750 vs a generator that doesn't make you money but would last longer in an outage for $4000?
     
  13. setipoo

    setipoo Breaker of Chains and Mother of Dragons

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    True. Another thing to consider is the power output. The Powerwall provides only 13.5kW (not sure i am right?) power but the Honeywell 22kW standby generator for natural gas (Costco $6200) can provide 19.5kW, unless I am reading the Tesla specs wrong.

    So the natural gas generator can run more appliances and is 'unlimited' supply (unlike battery).

    But Tesla PowerWall is so much cooler on the wall!!!!!!!!!
     
  14. SmartElectric

    SmartElectric Active Member

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    Sorry to take this thread so far off topic. Hope my reply below is enough.

    Oh, for sure, not microFIT, that has so many requirements which I am specifically avoiding.
    I'm putting in 10 panels on a DIY ground mount setup on 30 degree ravine lot backyard slope, doing all the planning, process and paper work myself, building and then getting electrician to finish the small final work.
    Payback is mostly due to DIY and using micro inverters and low cost (used) panels.
     
  15. Struja

    Struja Member

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    I wish this thread was in English.
     
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  16. wayner

    wayner Active Member

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    Interesting. microFIT does have a lot of requirements but is does also provide a handsome guaranteed return for 20 years, especially for those of us who got in a few years ago. I just passed the two year mark for my system which provides a bit under $5000/yr in revenue for an initial outlay of $31.5k - so about a 7 year payback. My system was turnkey - I did nothing other than sign cheques and application forms as the other issue with microFIT is there is lots of bureaucracy to navigate.
     
  17. rypalmer

    rypalmer Member

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    20 years, if your capital has no cost or better use. Factor in a cost of capital of 8%, how how does it look now? $916 in interest in the first year of a $11,450 loan.
     
  18. wayner

    wayner Active Member

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    8% is a bit high - you can get a HELOC at prime or so - that's about 3%. The way to do this is to calculate an IRR and see how that compares to other investments.
     
  19. Greyt

    Greyt New Member

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    I live in the Alectra trial area and just spoke with Alectra. This is what I understood:

    Right now you register interest by phone or email and when the plan is available on Sept 1 this year, registrants will be sent information on how to apply. It should take about 10 to 14 days to process the application. Once enrolled in the plan of your choice, for the duration of 2017 your bills will show both the old and new plan pricing, but you will be billed at the OLD pricing. This 2017 test period will help customers decide whether the new plan is saving them money (they are saving on the lower rate period) or costing more money (ie. their savings on the lower rate are not enough to cover the higher cost of the highest rate period). At the end of 2017, if you have saved money, you will receive the saving as a rebate. In 2018 the monthly bills will continue to show the difference between old billing and the new billing, but you will be billed at the NEW billing. If the plans are successful they will be expanded to other areas in Ontario.
     
    • Informative x 5
  20. blackscraper

    blackscraper Member

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    I have already been in this Advantage Power Price for quite some time. When I joined, only so called "dynamic plan" was available. With the new "overnight plan" available, I did a brief calculation and decided on not changing my current plan.
     

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