P85: Significant Capacity Loss and Vampire Drain

[Mike K]

Glad to hear you're getting it resolved. Unfortunately according to my SA they are really strict internally about making sure A pack cars get A pack replacement batteries. That said, some here have reported other experiences. Someone recently sold a very early production P85 that had it's A pack replaced with an E pack under warranty.

The good news for you (and the not so good news for the rest of us) is that lately finding a supercharger that's pushing more than 90kW is a rarity. It was one the of the things I was most looking forward to when I replaced my 85 with a P85D. So far out of 15 times supercharging I think I've gone over 90kW once. :-(

 

[AWDtsla]

They still have A packs sitting in some warehouse somewhere??? Must come pre-degraded at this point, 4 years later :-/

 

[Mike K]

I think they have components for them. That's why they go back for reconditioning versus being replaced.

 

[Ben W]

Glad to hear you're getting it resolved. Unfortunately according to my SA they are really strict internally about making sure A pack cars get A pack replacement batteries. That said, some here have reported other experiences. Someone recently sold a very early production P85 that had it's A pack replaced with an E pack under warranty.

Yes, I remember hearing about that case. Frankly, given the amount of problems they've had with the A pack, combined with the fact that there's still 4 years of warranty left on it, I would think they might be better off to replace it with a more reliable (reconditioned) pack to reduce the chance that it has to come back to them again for repair. Not sure what their actual costs are to shlep the battery from LA to Fremont and back for reconditioning, relative to the cost differential of providing a refurbished newer pack now. It will be interesting to find out what the exact nature of the failure was, if they'll tell me.

Will drop off the car in Santa Barbara on Monday to have the battery swapped out for a loaner pack. Wonder if the loaner pack will be a 90?

 

[Mike K]

Yes, I remember hearing about that case. Frankly, given the amount of problems they've had with the A pack, combined with the fact that there's still 4 years of warranty left on it, I would think they might be better off to replace it with a more reliable (reconditioned) pack to reduce the chance that it has to come back to them again for repair. Not sure what their actual costs are to shlep the battery from LA to Fremont and back for reconditioning, relative to the cost differential of providing a refurbished newer pack now. It will be interesting to find out what the exact nature of the failure was, if they'll tell me.

Will drop off the car in Santa Barbara on Monday to have the battery swapped out for a loaner pack. Wonder if the loaner pack will be a 90?

I too was wondering about that after your last post but unlike the other batteries, there's not much they can do with an A pack and likely not much they can do with A pack components other then use them to recondition other A packs. So from a dollars and cents point of view it seems like it would be cheaper for them to send it up to Fremont and back several times before it would make sense to give someone a new battery.

That said, I wonder why they wouldn't give you something like a B-pack. That would theoretically close the gap in the cost differential, both saving them on the cost of the replacement and lowering the chances of seeing the car experience problems again.

 

[Ben W]

I too was wondering about that after your last post but unlike the other batteries, there's not much they can do with an A pack and likely not much they can do with A pack components other then use them to recondition other A packs. So from a dollars and cents point of view it seems like it would be cheaper for them to send it up to Fremont and back several times before it would make sense to give someone a new battery.

Part of Tesla's original pitch for EV's was that the battery packs could be repurposed for stationary storage, even after they're no longer suitable for vehicle use. Perhaps they could use it at a Supercharger location?

 

[tomas]

I really hate this misrepresentation that there have been problems with A packs. What is the evidence? Aside from the supercharging top end limit, what? All I know of is contactor issues, which I think was on many early cars, and not correlated to just A pack. The reason I get aggravated is that this anecdotal theory based on no data becomes a fable that devalues my car. My A pack is at 4 years and 40k miles without incident and about 5% capacity loss... most of that in the first 18 months, just like all of the batteries.

 

[abasile]

The 'A' pack in our 2012 S-85, now at 76K miles, seems to have less than 5% capacity loss. The last time I charged to full (actually stopped a little before full), the car reported 255 rated miles. I find this quite impressive. Hopefully, if we end up with battery issues like Ben's car, that'll happen within the next four years!

 

[Ben W]

I really hate this misrepresentation that there have been problems with A packs. What is the evidence? Aside from the supercharging top end limit, what? All I know of is contactor issues, which I think was on many early cars, and not correlated to just A pack. The reason I get aggravated is that this anecdotal theory based on no data becomes a fable that devalues my car. My A pack is at 4 years and 40k miles without incident and about 5% capacity loss... most of that in the first 18 months, just like all of the batteries.

Fair that some of the initial problems may have been contactor issues, rather than 'A'-pack issues per se. But there had also been talk of worse degradation profiles (which I've certainly experienced with my 'A' pack, losing >10% capacity over 4 years / 45k miles even before this latest round of issues cropped up) and worse taper curves while supercharging, on top of the 90kW limitation. See e.g. Summary of A vs B battery issue? . To be fair, I couldn't find the original assertions of the problems that this post refers to.

In any case, will drop off the car in the morning and ask the service techs about it. Will see what else I can find out.

 

[tomas]

Fair that some of the initial problems may have been contactor issues, rather than 'A'-pack issues per se. But there had also been talk of worse degradation profiles (which I've certainly experienced with my 'A' pack, losing >10% capacity over 4 years / 45k miles even before this latest round of issues cropped up) and worse taper curves while supercharging, on top of the 90kW limitation. See e.g. Summary of A vs B battery issue? . To be fair, I couldn't find the original assertions of the problems that this post refers to.

In any case, will drop off the car in the morning and ask the service techs about it. Will see what else I can find out.

The only fact supported by data is the 90kw supercharge limitation. There have been assertions of degradation, but no hard data that would correlate to A packs. I am a very avid reader on this topic, and my conclusion from this forum is that there have been battery failures and unusual degradation examples reported for all kinds of packs. It is a natural assumption I guess to suspect that an earlier part number is somehow less reliable. May be true, but only Tesla would have that data. I'm sure they will fix your problem. Like others on this thread, I also hope they give you a new part. I also have to defend the A pack when allegations pop up.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Can a P85 even accept a 100 kWh pack?

 

[tomas]

Can a P85 even accept a 100 kWh pack?

I don't think anyone has ever offered up the $28k or whatever to find out. There were many statements from tesla that batteries would be swappable for > capacity over time but I would not be shocked if they've made "improvements" that preclude swapping to older cars.

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

can a P85 even accept a real 85 kWhr battery? ;P
I could really use those extra few kWhr

 

[Laaron]

Hi Ben. We just noticed the same problem after being on vacation for a week. 85kw battery (Dec 2014 Model S) 4-5% loss per day, parked in the garage. Overnight charges have also been have been falling from 90% at completion of charge to 88% by morning. No battery problems until very recently. I'll be watching your post with interest to see what Tesla comes up with. If my service centre comes up with anything interesting, I'll write a follow-up post.

 

[Ben W]

So it looks like Tesla may have to replace my whole battery pack; they're not sure yet whether the original can be remanufactured. Additionally, due to a Service Center snafu, they couldn't find a loaner battery to put in my Model S, so it looks like I may be driving the loaner car for a while (also a P85, though this one has parking sensors, which mine lacks). Time for a roadtrip? Will update again when I have more info.

 

[Canuck]

So it looks like Tesla may have to replace my whole battery pack; they're not sure yet whether the original can be remanufactured. Unfortunately, due to a Service Center snafu, they couldn't find a loaner battery to put in my Model S, so it looks like I may be driving the loaner car for a while (also a P85, though this one has parking sensors, which mine lacks). Time for a roadtrip?

Ha! My non-AP car went in for service for a charging problem and they gave me an AP loaner saying it would take about a week for parts. The first thing I did was take it out on the highway to my cabin, driving on AP whenever possible. It sure freaked me out going fast on a twisty but well marked mountain highway road. It was fun -- not relaxing at all -- but fun. I'm sure if I had AP full-time I'd get used to it. They told me it was speed limited but I can say for certain it was not.

 

[tdjvfr]

The only fact supported by data is the 90kw supercharge limitation. There have been assertions of degradation, but no hard data that would correlate to A packs. I am a very avid reader on this topic, and my conclusion from this forum is that there have been battery failures and unusual degradation examples reported for all kinds of packs. It is a natural assumption I guess to suspect that an earlier part number is somehow less reliable. May be true, but only Tesla would have that data. I'm sure they will fix your problem. Like others on this thread, I also hope they give you a new part. I also have to defend the A pack when allegations pop up.

I'll have to agree here. I haven't seen an evidence that A packs are a problem. Last time I fully charged my P85 it was around 255 miles. The only limitation I'm aware of is the 90KW max charge rate. Still very happy with my car.

 

[msnow]

I'll have to agree here. I haven't seen an evidence that A packs are a problem. Last time I fully charged my P85 it was around 255 miles. The only limitation I'm aware of is the 90KW max charge rate. Still very happy with my car.

What is the max charge rate for a 90D?

 

[Ben W]

I'll have to agree here. I haven't seen an evidence that A packs are a problem. Last time I fully charged my P85 it was around 255 miles. The only limitation I'm aware of is the 90KW max charge rate. Still very happy with my car.

My P85 Sig had diminished to about 242 miles on a Range charge (down from 273 when new) as of a month ago, and then abruptly dropped to about 222 miles with this latest incident. The problem is apparently not the contactors, which presumably could have been fixed locally, hence it is most likely with the battery pack itself, which is an 'A' pack. So there's at least one data point. And don't get me wrong; I'm still deliriously happy with my car as well!!

 

[Ben W]

What is the max charge rate for a 90D?

All cars besides the early-VIN 'A'-pack models (and 1st-gen 60kWh models) can charge at 120kW. Also, evidently, when early-VIN cars are mated with more recent battery packs, they can charge at 120kW as well. Some of the newer superchargers have 135kW available (or even 145kW) between pairs of stalls, but I don't believe any individual car can receive more than 120kW. Perhaps the new 100kWh packs allow more than 120kW? Not sure.