Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits

[bhzmark]

are severely irked at perceived/possible mistreatment

shine a light on what they should not be doing?

You aren't shining a light on any actual harm. You are blowing smoke about perceptions and theoretical possibilities of harm. The only thing we know for sure (and I use even that attribution of certainty loosely) is:

1) one person with a credible pedigree has alleged diminished power and stated that Tesla has informally told him it is because of his launch mode usage. But he hasn't described his launch mode usage and has even had Tesla formally record the concern as a service issue.

2) one person of high credibility as found evidence of counters in the software, but no evidence of what, if any thing any of them are used for, aside from the above, count of the launch mode usage counter.

3) another person of high credibility has described a conversation with a Tesla service staff (which by definition having widely inconsistent credibility) that the various counters are used for various but unspecified purposes with no further details.

4) Tesla has stated on its website a broad disclaimer which covers the known L+ statement, as well as the yellow line for overheated batteries, but also could cover future (or currently unknown) countermeasure and specifics related to longevity vs performance tradeoffs designed into both the hardware and software.

5) For all the flogging of the P models done throughout the world, including TRC and Dragtimes, not a single other person has made a credible (or even incredible) claim of the diminished power that so many are so outraged about.

Two other fixed points:
A. Engineering always has to make tradeoffs between performance and longevity (e.g., 1/4 mile ET vs. mean time to failure).
B. Tesla engineers, and their leaders, have done pretty well so far and are way more aggressive and effective on both dimensions than any competitor.

Based on past real results, I'm comfortable with the balance that they will strike, and comfortable that they will likely further refine and tweak that balance -- until presented with clear evidence to the contrary.

If somebody presented the current P90D to us 5 years ago, with the price that we paid, [perceived and possible] warts and all, there are damn few current owners who wouldn't be lined up with cheques. I certainly would be.

Amen

 

[winfield100]

Aree you suggesting we save Tesla from itself?

No, i'm suggesting that the "dirty laundry" being exposed here can and most likely will be exaggerated and posted by those who do want to damage Tesla and TSLA.
NOTE: I was directed to this page/forum from Seeking Alpha by Ralph Vader/Keef Wivanoff, a gadfly from Australia whom has filed numerous NHTSA reports (some say without standing)
Someone is still filing bogus NHTSA complaints about Tesla’s suspension allegedly failing
and whom another TSLA short, [long term puts] Montana Skeptic used (Keef) for 1/3 of a negative TSLA/Tesla article

I'm extremely suspicious of users here with nil bios that have recently registered, as potential trolls and shorts regularly report negativity to be used elsewhere.

{A mildly accidentally negative comment i made due to a bad/misbehaving keyboard was immediately reported to an SA contributor whom claims to be a lawyer and has used the word "slander" comes to mind}

I'm not "diss'ing" your concerns, i suspect they may be mis-used by others with nefarious intent

go back and look at the stock price history, note that short interest declined 1.5 million shares recently and the ~8%+ hit the shorts took just since 1/1/2017 (and climbing)
remember the stock price is up over 25% in ~6 trading weeks and short options expiring worthless or negative

 

[JRP3]

I'm not "diss'ing" your concerns, i suspect they may be mis-used by others with nefarious intent

Of course they will. So? They will twist and distort anything, just as they always have, and in the long run it still won't matter.

 

[AWDtsla]

i appreciate that you both like driving Tesla vehicles and are severely irked at perceived/possible mistreatment
I would suggest that in these 91 pages of discourse, there are Trolls and shorts, possibly fanning flames,
note join dates, lack of bio, references to this forum on short articles by known detractors, etc

You do realize the stock price has gone up ~$50 since December 1, 2015 (~25%+) and many shorts are seriously hurting puppies.
I would read many comments here with a bit of a jaundiced eye with the above in mind and try to winnow chaff from actualities.
some may be real, some exagerated, etc

(west palm beach!, Sanibel is also nice area, gulf coast SC had 5 of 8 bays in use few days ago in Naples area)

I literally do not care. The stock is also highly leveraged and is prone to swings either way for any random reason. It will not be a reason to stop discussing real issues. Whatever goodwill that would have prevented that, was lost when Tesla started removing ludicrous mode without proactively warning owners what was going on.

I'd be fine if they just remove the power limit and deal with whatever warranty costs come up later. It can't be that expensive. They might need to fix a few batteries, but that has to be less expensive than upgrading or refunding people.

I believe effectively you lose the whole pack if the wire bonds start failing, there is no repair that isn't completely remanufacturing the pack with a robot. However, that means Tesla should have taken the old packs in for warranty replacement and found some other use for the non-ludicrous enabled packs starting a long time ago.


Also, I got 2.52.22 last night, and I was unable to enable the spiffy display dragtimes had. Of course, why point out how little power your car is making?

 

[sorka]

Some sample tweets that anyone can use:
For media: "Check out Tesla's "Launchgate". They sold us cars with one power level and then took it away later! So when does (or how long does it take for) a PxxxD to become more like a SxxxD? | Tesla Motors"

To Tesla people:
"Please stop limiting our cars! Tesla May Reduce Vehicle Power After Too Many Ludicrous Mode Engagements"

Replace with whatever you want.

Launchgate is catchy but not accurate as it's really "took-away-power-at-all-speeds-gate"

 

[n2mb_racing]

Launchgate is catchy but not accurate as it's really "took-away-power-at-all-speeds-gate"

Good point. More like Ludicrousgate. Or taking away our $10k option and then some ... gate.

 

[AWDtsla]

I'm extremely suspicious of users here with nil bios that have recently registered, as potential trolls and shorts regularly report negativity to be used elsewhere.

Paranoid much? Tesla has been on an exponential sales curve, you should expect there are more new users and old, if not, it's because TMC is effectively becoming irrelevant. I never fill out a bio, anywhere.

 

[lolachampcar]

bhzmark,
Everything you write is spot on.
You just need to add that-
Since we started discussing this publicly, Tesla has added a disclaimer to their web site.
Since we have started discussing this publicly, Tesla has provided no meaningful information to the contrary.

It's easy, Tesla just says "no, there is some misleading information floating around. This is what we did and why it is not a problem."
Crickets

 

[n2mb_racing]

Also, I got 2.52.22 last night, and I was unable to enable the spiffy display dragtimes had. Of course, why point out how little power your car is making?

@AWDtsla Did it give you the popup asking if you want to "push the limits" ? Or just do the space-balls thing as before.

I guess we can also see what happens with 2.52.36. It looks like a newer version is now available.

 

[AWDtsla]

Also this talk of Tesla failing because of this issue is junk. They have already technically been required to set aside money for warrantee, up until the life of all delivered cars, i.e. 8+ years. If anything this should only slightly accelerate their warranty spending, not obliterate it. If Tesla is failing, it's because they've f*cked up in many other areas.

 

[AWDtsla]

bhzmark,
Everything you write is spot on.
You just need to add that-
Since we started discussing this publicly, Tesla has added a disclaimer to their web site.
Since we have started discussing this publicly, Tesla has provided no meaningful information to the contrary.

It's easy, Tesla just says "no, there is some misleading information floating around. This is what we did and why it is not a problem."
Crickets

Tesla could easily shut us all up with an email with concrete terms and reasonable arrangements.

 

[AWDtsla]

@AWDtsla Did it give you the popup asking if you want to "push the limits" ? Or just do the space-balls thing as before.

I guess we can also see what happens with 2.52.36. It looks like a newer version is now available.

Just did spaceballs. I tried different combinations. I hoping for at least the display with pack temperature. Nothing.

 

[Andyw2100]

Launchgate is catchy but not accurate as it's really "took-away-power-at-all-speeds-gate"

Good point. More like Ludicrousgate. Or taking away our $10k option and then some ... gate.

I thought we were referring to this as "Counter-gate."

 

[n2mb_racing]

I thought we were referring to this as "Counter-gate."

That works.

 

[winfield100]

Paranoid much? Tesla has been on an exponential sales curve, you should expect there are more new users and old, if not, it's because TMC is effectively becoming irrelevant. I never fill out a bio, anywhere.

no, not paranoid, but after 25,000 sunrises, i have learned not to trust to the "good intentions" of others as much as i used to.
"they know there is money in your pocket, and they'd have it if they could"
{meanwhile the (INDEXDJXWCPF) has crashed ~1.25%}

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Blissful.....finally. I just looked and realized the post counter is skipping post #s. Gee I wonder why

Won't the Countergate ever end! Now there is a counter that makes Tesla related posts disappear too!

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I'd be fine if they just remove the power limit and deal with whatever warranty costs come up later. It can't be that expensive. They might need to fix a few batteries, but that has to be less expensive than upgrading or refunding people.

Do we know what the failure scenario is without the counter limitation?

In general terms, not applying to this specific case necessarily: If a failure is simply an error code and maybe a limping car, that would be simpler to hadle in a multitude of ways than car abruptly stopping on the roadside... let alone - say, just as a concept - a catastrophic fire caused by such a failure.

 

[lolachampcar]

The owner called Tesla who checked the logs then told him power was reduced because he had exceeded counter limits. That is really all we know.

Given the nature of the changes to the P100 battery in addition to WK's work, I've speculated that it is bond wire failing which would be an avalanche or catastrophic battery failure. Allowing the batteries to reach this point would be irresponsible both from a warranty set aside and a PR point of view. The question is, how do you address the impending problem?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

The owner called Tesla who checked the logs then told him power was reduced because he had exceeded counter limits. That is really all we know.

Are there any known pack or drivetrain failures of the P90DL? If so, what were their effects?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I just don't get on one hand teasing us to push the cars with L+, and on the other hand limiting performance with a counter. The L+ is from Elon, and the counter is from the.....(wait for it).... bean counters.

What makes you think Elon can't be behind both?

Both Ludicrous+ and suppressing Countergate make short-term PR and business sense. No matter how immoral.