Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits

[Walta]

What makes you think Elon can't be behind both?

Both Ludicrous+ and suppressing Countergate make short-term PR and business sense. No matter how immoral.

It is like they implemented countergate, then started to taunt people to use L+ ? Like they want us all in @Tech_Guy mode? That would eliminate the drive train warranty issue.

 

[fiksegts]

really have to get to the track and see, the vbox isn't great for measuring the 60'.... I can say that I tested my P100D and a brand new P100D AP2 car last night and while the 0-60 times dropped a bit, 2.46 vs my previous best of 2.51, I think it's going to be hard to hit a 10.6 1/4 mile, as the trap speeds really haven't increased. Both cars were in the high 10.7x for the 1/4 mile.

The new P100D AP2 car is making 5kW more peak than mine and has the pano roof, but both was were very close.

Given how long it took to roll out and the new acknowledgment screen, I was expecting more on the top end, 125 MPH traps, etc...

Brooks,

Have you had a chance to see if Tesla has increased initial current ramp (lowered 60' times) in addition to the extra 20ish KW in power?

 

[AWDtsla]

Both Ludicrous+ and suppressing Countergate make short-term PR and business sense.

No they don't. The normal car guy doesn't frankly care that you got another 0.1 to 60. The fact that you can't use it enthusiastically, especially on a track is where things fall apart. Just an overpriced overhyped golf car.

PS. I'm currently hiding my face from my car guy friends...

 

[AWDtsla]

Imagine a BMW came with a system that did 100HP shots of nitrous. But secretly, after you used it n times, it was disabled forever. BTW you paid $35,000 more than the next model down to get it.

 

[Walta]

Imagine a BMW came with a system that did 100HP shots of nitrous. But secretly, after you used it n times, it was disabled forever. BTW you paid $35,000 more than the next model down to get it.

@AWDtsla - I noticed your signature and was wondering.... do you have the "S" there becuase you are specifying it is not an "X" ?
Or, because it is a P90DL with "S" mode waiting on the side for his turn?

 

[msnow]

You aren't shining a light on any actual harm. You are blowing smoke about perceptions and theoretical possibilities of harm. The only thing we know for sure (and I use even that attribution of certainty loosely) is:

1) one person with a credible pedigree has alleged diminished power and stated that Tesla has informally told him it is because of his launch mode usage. But he hasn't described his launch mode usage and has even had Tesla formally record the concern as a service issue.

2) one person of high credibility as found evidence of counters in the software, but no evidence of what, if any thing any of them are used for, aside from the above, count of the launch mode usage counter.

3) another person of high credibility has described a conversation with a Tesla service staff (which by definition having widely inconsistent credibility) that the various counters are used for various but unspecified purposes with no further details.

4) Tesla has stated on its website a broad disclaimer which covers the known L+ statement, as well as the yellow line for overheated batteries, but also could cover future (or currently unknown) countermeasure and specifics related to longevity vs performance tradeoffs designed into both the hardware and software.

5) For all the flogging of the P models done throughout the world, including TRC and Dragtimes, not a single other person has made a credible (or even incredible) claim of the diminished power that so many are so outraged about.

Two other fixed points:
A. Engineering always has to make tradeoffs between performance and longevity (e.g., 1/4 mile ET vs. mean time to failure).
B. Tesla engineers, and their leaders, have done pretty well so far and are way more aggressive and effective on both dimensions than any competitor.

Based on past real results, I'm comfortable with the balance that they will strike, and comfortable that they will likely further refine and tweak that balance -- until presented with clear evidence to the contrary.



Amen

I think you mischaracterized #1. Tesla did remote diagnostics and told him in writing the power loss was due to counters. Of course they could be wrong but your "agenda" shouldn't get in the way of the facts.
As mentioned before he's not likely to get a formal letter on high from Fremont as you think is required.

 

[brianman]

has crashed ~1.25%

1.25% is not a crash

 

[AWDtsla]

@AWDtsla - I noticed your signature and was wondering.... do you have the "S" there becuase you are specifying it is not an "X" ?
Or, because it is a P90DL with "S" mode waiting on the side for his turn?

I think it's both at this point

 

[AnxietyRanger]

No they don't. The normal car guy doesn't frankly care that you got another 0.1 to 60. The fact that you can't use it enthusiastically, especially on a track is where things fall apart. Just an overpriced overhyped golf car.

PS. I'm currently hiding my face from my car guy friends...

You probably misunderstood me.

What I meant was Elon could well be behind both the decision to release Ludicrous+ update and to respond to wear issues through counters and suppressing of such in public.

Both make short-term business sense. Ludicrous+ makes press and helps in non-paid advertising and adding to the Tesla legend (cloud software update for more HP). The fact that it gets them further into fastest production car territory and gets some more people into signing a vague disclaimer helps...

As for Countergate. I doubt they intended it originally to happen. But when the issues surfaced, limitation of warranty liabilities through counter uses makes short-term business sense. As does avoiding publicity as much as possible for PR reasons.

Now, longer-term this is of course very risky. But the notion that this would still be on-going behind Elon's back does sound unlikely.

 

[AWDtsla]

As I'm still fuming over this despite having better things to do, I'd just like to remind everyone that the current price differential between a base 90D and a base P100D is $45,500. That's called Ludicrous margin. Given the 100 pack is the 3rd generation pack it should be even cheaper to produce per kWh than the 90.

 

[fiksegts]

Elon just tweeted 0-60 in 2.34 via motor trend? Not in this release...

 

[AWDtsla]

As for Countergate. I doubt they intended it originally to happen. But when the issues surfaced, limitation of warranty liabilities through counter uses makes short-term business sense

I think they knew almost immediately that this was going to be a problem. So they shipped what, 8 months of P90Dl's before shipping an upgraded 90 pack? Sometime in the middle of which they shipped software that started populating usage counters? Then another several months after the V2 pack released software that started active limiting? That's way too long for "oops we made a mistake". It would be nice if someone with all that facts could put down a hard timeline.

This is why anyone who buys another P car now deserves what they get.

 

[brianman]

As I'm still fuming over this despite having better things to do, I'd just like to remind everyone that the current price differential between a base 90D and a base P100D is $45,500. That's called Ludicrous margin. Given the 100 pack is the 3rd generation pack it should be even cheaper to produce per kWh than the 90.

Will I understand your sentiment, that's an overstatement. Specifically, it dismisses the range difference (315 vs. 294), Red Brake Cailpers, and Smart Air Suspension as having no value. SAS alone is priced as a $2,500 upgrade to the 90D.

 

[sandpiper]

Sandpiper,

"Do they communicate well? No. Are they getting better? Yes, I think so."

I think this is where we are parting company.
Tesla is doing some daring, smart, difficult and very good things. Tesla also has a problem with the way it handles customers (IMO). The question our back and forth raises for me is do we accept the bad behavior for the benefit of the good? I do not know the answer to that question. What I do know is that the following list is not poor communication, it is intentional behavior.

Sought to trade in my BMW at the end of 2012 (CarMax or AutoNation days - I forget which) knowing that if I waited until I got my P85 in early 2013 my BMW would have rolled over another year's depreciation in a matter of a month or two. I delivered the BMW to the SC in December and collected my P85 early the next year. Tesla was trying to sort their initial "am I a dealer?" issues so they refused to give me the Florida Sales Tax credit on the BMW. To be clear, Tesla had a Florida Auto Dealers License else they would not have been able to sell cars in Florida. They were just unsure about how they were going to proceed and there was nothing in it for them to deny the sales tax credit. Their answer was to take the money out of the customer's pocket. To be clear, as a dealer in Florida, Tesla has a duty to collect sales tax and Florida law provides for a sales tax offset on trades. The decrease in tax to me comes from the state so absolutely no money was coming out of Tesla's pockets. Had the delivery of my trade cooincied with taking delivery of the P85, I could have refused delivery. It did not and I did not. I raised cain on this issue for months and finally got a warranty extension consideration (which turned out useless as, when I sold the car a few months later to get a P85+, Tesla forgot all about it and did not transfer the extension to the new owner).

The PD is announced. I place an order and, knowing P85+ values will plummet once the PDs start shipping, I ask to deliver my P85+ trade early. Tesla is starting its CPO program at this time to capture the flood of MS trades and better control the secondary market. Tesla offers a low number. I sought out other wholesale numbers and found one of Tesla's own wholesale partners who offered me $9K more. I went back to Tesla and asked them to do a courtesy trade of my car through to this wholesaler (again, a party they regularly do business with on ICE trades). They refuse saying the only way for me to get the Fl Sales Tax credit is to take their $9K lower number. Again, for clarity, if you hold a Fl Auto Dealers License you have an obligation to act as the State's agent and collect sales tax. The tax obligation is between me and the state; Tesla is only in the middle of that transaction as a result of their obligation to collect the tax. Tesla used this position to attempt to buy my car for $9K less than existing wholesale. I disposed of the car elsewhere.

Fast forward to today and we are discussing buying a performance model car then having the manufacturer reach out and take that horsepower away if you have the audacity to use it. I'm not taking about going to the race track or drifting; I'm talking about driving it like most any normal buyer that owns a 911, M Series or AMG.

There are many other examples I can provide like 691 hp, battery capacity and the like. The above are just two first hand experiences combined with the topic of this thread.

I see part of Tesla's behavior being the unbridled abuse of customers simply because they have the leverage and can. I see a pattern of showing customer concern where there is sunlight and having complete disregard for them when the activity is limited and receives little or no notice. From a big picture standpoint, I believe this forms a credible threat to the company's future all be it a small one. If I'm affected, I'll likely just dump the car and move on. I'm not the suing type for such things. I think, in the absence of greater awareness, Tesla will get away with this in the US as they have with the 691 hp issue. Heck, the 691 issue was much more cut and dried yet nothing happened here.

This is why I ask the question about the good Tesla is doing outweighing the way they are going about it. The follow on question is why accept the bad if it really is not adding to their ability to do the good?


Lastly, thank you for the honest, open and respectful debate on this issue. I appreciate your perspective and thoughtful comments.

LCC,

Similarly I appreciate your comments. There is too much fire and brimstone in some quarters of this debate, and I think it takes away from the issue.

Your points are 100% valid, and I agree with all of them. I've certainly had some issues with Tesla as well - although less that yours. I guess my view is tempered by my own personal experience. As a business owner, engineer, and a person who's led a (much smaller!) business through a period of rapid growth, I project and extrapolate from my own experience onto what I see happening at Tesla. And I am in absolute awe as to what they are accomplishing.

The issues that they're having look to be the product of an insane growth curve, dire financial necessity, and inevitable engineering issues that crop up with ANY new product. What they're doing is, I think, unequalled on the planet, and I don't think that we outsiders have ANY concept as to the chaos that is unfolding ( and being fairly successfully managed) within that organization. I suspect that if we had a chance to sit in the senior management meetings for a week, we would walk away with a lot more sympathy for the human beings that are trying to create this enormous enterprise under incredible pressure.

Anyway... I'm not claiming that Tesla is handling things perfectly or even particularly well in some cases. We all have to choose whether we cut them slack or try to burn them for it. Neither is right or wrong; it's a personal preference. I choose to cut slack.

 

[AWDtsla]

Red Brake Cailpers

LOL. I hear red paint is at a premium now days.

 

[SDRick]

As I'm still fuming over this despite having better things to do, I'd just like to remind everyone that the current price differential between a base 90D and a base P100D is $45,500. That's called Ludicrous margin. Given the 100 pack is the 3rd generation pack it should be even cheaper to produce per kWh than the 90.

I think you are combining the ludicrous "margin" along with the cost of the performance upgrade. In my case, going to ludicrous was a $10,000 upgrade and I believe it is only Ludacris that is causing all the indigestion and potentially excessive strain.

 

[bhzmark]

I think you mischaracterized #1. Tesla did remote diagnostics and told him in writing the power loss was due to counters. Of course they could be wrong but your "agenda" shouldn't get in the way of the facts.
As mentioned before he's not likely to get a formal letter on high from Fremont as you think is required.

Not a "letter on high". Your agenda shouldn't distort the fact that we only suggested getting a service invoice, specifying customer concern and Teslas resolution. The ordinary way to handle and document these issues.

 

[AWDtsla]

I think you are combining the ludicrous "margin" along with the cost of the performance upgrade. In my case, going to ludicrous was a $10,000 upgrade and I believe it is only Ludacris that is causing all the indigestion and potentially excessive strain.

I would NEVER have gotten the P90D without Ludicrous, based on real-world data it makes no sense. Taking out their 0-60 fudging, the difference between insane mode and a regular 90D was something like 3.3s vs 3.9s, further more the thing that cemented my decision was highway passing power 60mph and up, for which there was NO difference between the insane P90D and 90D. Not to mention, you have to be at a high SoC to pull off those 0-60 times anyway. Drive around 40-50% SoC and it's just "meh".

Yeah, so now we're devolving into last year's debacle.

 

[Andyw2100]

Elon just tweeted 0-60 in 2.34 via motor trend? Not in this release...

This is the tweet:

I think there is a misunderstanding. I expect what Musk is saying is that 0-60 in 2.34 seconds might be achievable in the "Special" (spec) Motor Trend car that Tesla rigged up "specially" (spec) for Motor Trend.

 

[AWDtsla]

This is the tweet:

View attachment 210233


I think there is a misunderstanding. I expect what Musk is saying is that 0-60 in 2.34 seconds might be achievable in the "Special" (spec) Motor Trend car that Tesla rigged up "specially" (spec) for Motor Trend.

So get motortrend to validate the results, sell cars on those results, and then deliver a 110 pack in a year and a half that can actually deliver it to a real owner. Oh, and charge everybody another $10k on their cars between now and then.