Performance Plus (P85+) vs. Performance (P85) Test Drive and Review

[lolachampcar]

roblab,
You are one of the highest milage MS owners I have seen so far. How is everything holding up from tires through interior with all the miles? How has your opinion of the car matured?
Thanks,
Bill

 

[Blurry_Eyed]

Blurry,
I've read different posts where owners mention "the rear axle nut" work. Can you shed some detailed light on the symptoms of a problem and the exact nature of the fix for this issue?

Hi Lolachampcar,

I spoke with the service team about the rear axle nut work and it is related to the torque spec on the lug nuts for the wheels. Basically the early VIN's (the Sig's and a few of the production cars) had lug nut and washers that would not hold their torque properly, so over time they would loosen and you could get wheel wobble or movement. Those issues are not present now with the new lug nuts and washers they are using, but as older cars are coming in, they are replacing them. BTY - if you visit the 'Steering Alignment' thread Steering alignment - Page 2 , I posted a picture of my recent alignment numbers. My theory is the amount of torque the Model S can generate pushed my fronts out of alignment in the maneuver I did with the car. I'd be curious as to your opinion of the numbers and if this is common or uncommon on cars that have big torque numbers.

 

[lloyds]

Thumbs up to the +

 

[JPP]

I was at the Fremont SC today (...yes, Saturday) to pick up my car after a service visit for a number of small issues, including an alignment to fix the slightly out-of-midline steering wheel. I happened to chat with a senior service tech there who is their alignment/suspension guru, and he shared a few notes/observations with me. Many of these are probably well understood and better explained by lolachampcar:

The car was/is engineered with rear camber (as are many performance cars) to keep us 'untrained' drivers out of trouble by limiting/reducing oversteer.
This rear camber will lead to more inside tire wear.
When you accelerate and shift weight back a bit, and the car settles down a bit at the rear, the rear camber increases, as does rear toe, increasing tire wear.
The air suspension, while nice, has the unfortunate effect of altering the suspension geometry depending on how high or low the car is at (and of course at what height you did the 4 wheel alignment).
When the car lowers at highway speeds, the rear camber and toe increase, with more tire wear.
If you really want the best tire wear, get the standard (not air) suspension, and don't drive like a maniac.
The P85+ will have better tire wear due to more suspension stiffness and less shifting of the car and geometry.

Side note: Since the Fremont SC is attached to the factory, they are asked to do projects more related to testing and production in addition to their huge service load. The senior tech I spoke to has worked on a couple of 'test' cars to do the P85 to P85+ modification/upgrade, to see what training/documentation is needed, if the parts/fitment are sound, and how long it will take. It takes over 20 hours of tech time to do the full upgrade, thus the big $$ cost. Interestingly, the Fremont SC has 5 Model S owners signed up ready, willing & able to do the upgrade (regardless of $$). 2 are original Signature owners with the sig red, and do not want to give their cars up in trade.

 

[gnelson]

I drove a P85 loaner this week with 19 in wheels. It did not ride any better than my P85+. I also noticed that mine had superior traction and acceleration through corners.

 

[HHHH]

I drove a P85 loaner this week with 19 in wheels. It did not ride any better than my P85+. I also noticed that mine had superior traction and acceleration through corners.

How long have you had your car now? What was it in for?

 

[lolachampcar]

JPP,
It is good to hear straight answers from the technical types at Tesla.

Camber increases as the ride height lowers is normally called camber gain. I calculated 0.4 degrees of camber gain on MS with 2" of lowering. Another member posted the difference between Standard and Low was 1.3" so the camber increase going down the highway should be less than .3 degrees. I'm making some changes to my P+ and will measure the Standard and Low ride heights in addition to the static camber in the rear at each. I'll post the results.

Toe changing with suspension travel is normally called bump steer. I have an email into Tesla engineering regarding changes to toe when the upright is loaded as I am suspecting toe as the wear culprit. We will see what they have to say.

The negative camber is indeed in the back of the car to save us from ourselves. In addition, manufacturers have to comply with FMVSS 126 which requires stability control in production cars. Here is the section that deals with testing for aggravated accident avoidance.


Oversteering Test Maneuver
The required performance test uses a maneuver based on a modified 0.7 Hz sinusoidal steeringinput to assess ESC oversteering intervention performance. The maneuver, known as the 0.7 HzSine with Dwell maneuver, is depicted in Figure II*1. To ensure accurate, repeatable, andreproducible results, the performance test uses a steering machine to deliver the maneuver to thesteering wheel. Steering is initiated at 80.5 kmph with a variation of 1.6 kmph (50 mph + 1.0mph). Two series of tests are conducted: one with left*right steering maneuver and the other onewith right*left steering maneuver. Each series of tests begins with a test run with a moderatesteering wheel angle. The subsequent steering wheel angles are increased from test run*to*testrun in a series until a termination criterion is attained.
Figure II*1. Sine with Dwell Handwheel Inputs
Initially, the agency examined 12 maneuvers with 12 steering combinations. After three phasesof maneuver reduction research, the agency identified the top four possible maneuvers.13 The ....

In short, they put a steering device on the car and yank the snot out of it. To pass, the car can not swap ends. I'm glad I'm not the test driver on those maneuvers

 

[gnelson]

How long have you had your car now? What was it in for?

I got it June 20. I had the right rear wheel sent off for a wheel repair. On June 21 I still wasn't used to the width of the car and slightly rashed the wheel. AWS touched it up on the car and it was not noticeable. I wanted to get the wheel stripped and repainted using the Tesla paint code and then get a new clear coat. Tesla service centers don't do wheel repairs and don't contract work with 3rd parties. The Houston Service Center was kind enough to let me have a loaner and let AWS pick up the wheel from the SC. I made all the arrangements with AWS to keep the SC from contracting with a 3rd party.

Now that I have adjusted to the width of the Model S and have Alloy Gators I hopefully will not rash another wheel.

- - - Updated - - -

Lolachampcar mentioned bump steer. I had a 2001 Corvette convertible. I experienced bump steer in that car on occasion. I replaced that car with a 2003 50th Anniversary convertible with magnetic ride suspension. I never again experienced bump steer. The magnetic ride suspension kept the wheels on the pavement exceptionally well. I suspect the air suspension on the Model S is a better improvement, and I can't imagine ever experiencing bump steer in the P85+.

 

[jsmartinson]

Great Review

First, thank you for your great review. You validated my decision not to get the Performance model. Thank you. :smile:

I have a Model S 85 with all of the extras, but not a performance model because I rarely drive over the speed limit, if ever, and I use cruise control most of the time. I have not used the sport mode yet. Before we had children, I drove an EV1 for 3 years, always trying to best my range. Now with a 10 and 12 year old, the Tesla is perfect for our family. I love the car, believe in the technology, and want to contribute to a more sustainable future. We will likely get a Model X as well.

 

[callmesam]

First, thank you for your great review. You validated my decision not to get the Performance model. Thank you. :smile:

I have a Model S 85 with all of the extras, but not a performance model because I rarely drive over the speed limit, if ever, and I use cruise control most of the time. I have not used the sport mode yet. Before we had children, I drove an EV1 for 3 years, always trying to best my range. Now with a 10 and 12 year old, the Tesla is perfect for our family. I love the car, believe in the technology, and want to contribute to a more sustainable future. We will likely get a Model X as well.

What kind of wh/mile efficiency are you getting?

 

[HHHH]

I got it June 20. I had the right rear wheel sent off for a wheel repair. On June 21 I still wasn't used to the width of the car and slightly rashed the wheel. AWS touched it up on the car and it was not noticeable. I wanted to get the wheel stripped and repainted using the Tesla paint code and then get a new clear coat. Tesla service centers don't do wheel repairs and don't contract work with 3rd parties. The Houston Service Center was kind enough to let me have a loaner and let AWS pick up the wheel from the SC. I made all the arrangements with AWS to keep the SC from contracting with a 3rd party.

Now that I have adjusted to the width of the Model S and have Alloy Gators I hopefully will not rash another wheel.

- - - Updated - - -

Lolachampcar mentioned bump steer. I had a 2001 Corvette convertible. I experienced bump steer in that car on occasion. I replaced that car with a 2003 50th Anniversary convertible with magnetic ride suspension. I never again experienced bump steer. The magnetic ride suspension kept the wheels on the pavement exceptionally well. I suspect the air suspension on the Model S is a better improvement, and I can't imagine ever experiencing bump steer in the P85+.

Glad to hear things are resolved and that it was cosmetic not mechanical.

 

[Doug_G]

So today I got a loaner, and it's a P85+! What a great opportunity to compare it with my P85.

First thing I noticed is that you feel every little bump on the road. Suspension is definitely stiffer.

Second thing I noticed is that it corners significantly better than my P85.

I could launch from a standstill into a hard corner at full throttle, without any theatrics. My Roadster can do that, but my P85 cannot. The P85+ can.

I could do a sharp full throttle lane change and there was no butt wiggle whatsoever. (I don't recommend you try this. It's really not something you should be doing. Also I worked my way up to it.)

I haven't pushed it to the limit - shouldn't do that on the street - but it's already quite clear that its limits are higher. I wonder if Tesla would notice if I took it to the track? :biggrin:

Other minor things:

• It makes a sound mine doesn't. Under hard acceleration you get the same balloon sound, but you also get another sound - a low whine that increases in frequency as the car speeds up. My car does not do that. It's reminiscent of the Roadster's acceleration whine, only much lower pitch.
• The loaner doesn't have internet access for some reason. No music. No maps.
• It has parking sensors! It's a rather cool implementation. I noticed that it uses different sound system speakers for the different sensors, so you get an audible indication of the direction of the obstruction as well as a visual one. I haven't quite figured out at what point the front sensors come on - they always come on in reverse, but I only had them come on going forwards when I pulled it into my garage for a charge.

 

[brianman]

So today I got a loaner, and it's a P85+! What a great opportunity to compare it with my P85.

If the retrofit was "only" $6,500 would you do it to your Sig?

 

[Doug_G]

If the retrofit was "only" $6,500 would you do it to your Sig?

Yes.

 

[mnx]

So today I got a loaner, and it's a P85+! What a great opportunity to compare it with my P85.

First thing I noticed is that you feel every little bump on the road. Suspension is definitely stiffer.

Second thing I noticed is that it corners significantly better than my P85.

I could launch from a standstill into a hard corner at full throttle, without any theatrics. My Roadster can do that, but my P85 cannot. The P85+ can.

I could do a sharp full throttle lane change and there was no butt wiggle whatsoever. (I don't recommend you try this. It's really not something you should be doing. Also I worked my way up to it.)

I haven't pushed it to the limit - shouldn't do that on the street - but it's already quite clear that its limits are higher. I wonder if Tesla would notice if I took it to the track? :biggrin:


[/LIST]

LOL Thanks Doug, now I officially want a P85+

 

[Duckjybe]

So today I got a loaner, and it's a P85+! What a great opportunity to compare it with my P85.

First thing I noticed is that you feel every little bump on the road. Suspension is definitely stiffer.

Second thing I noticed is that it corners significantly better than my P85.

I could launch from a standstill into a hard corner at full throttle, without any theatrics. My Roadster can do that, but my P85 cannot. The P85+ can.

I could do a sharp full throttle lane change and there was no butt wiggle whatsoever. (I don't recommend you try this. It's really not something you should be doing. Also I worked my way up to it.)

I haven't pushed it to the limit - shouldn't do that on the street - but it's already quite clear that its limits are higher. I wonder if Tesla would notice if I took it to the track? :biggrin:

Other minor things:

• It makes a sound mine doesn't. Under hard acceleration you get the same balloon sound, but you also get another sound - a low whine that increases in frequency as the car speeds up. My car does not do that. It's reminiscent of the Roadster's acceleration whine, only much lower pitch.
• The loaner doesn't have internet access for some reason. No music. No maps.
• It has parking sensors! It's a rather cool implementation. I noticed that it uses different sound system speakers for the different sensors, so you get an audible indication of the direction of the obstruction as well as a visual one. I haven't quite figured out at what point the front sensors come on - they always come on in reverse, but I only had them come on going forwards when I pulled it into my garage for a charge.

Hey Doug I think I may have the loaner you had. The Toronto Service porter was supposed to come get my car last week but had to go to Ottawa. I now have a black P85+ loaner with grey wheels. I must say I am liking this car! It corners better and it feels tighter. I even think it is better in the wind than my P85. Like you say there is more motor whine that makes the car sound more powerful in my mind. It actually feels more powerful to me as well. The parking sensor chimes would take a bit of getting used to as they even go off any time someone gets a little close at a light.

Oh and front floor mats are as floppy as ever, rear 3rd row jump seat cover now has a sturdy plastic back which should last better with kids feet kicking it.

What a fantastic loaner program!

 

[joefee]

Had a P85+ loaner vs my P85. Handing is amazing…I won’t repeat all the above.

The only point I would make is the road and motor noise is very noticeable, especially cruising at 75 mph on 90min freeway trip.

interesting comment by:

lars.thomsen@fu... | SEPTEMBER 14, 2013
I picked up my new P85+ yesterday and have the same issue. I will return the car to Tesla on Monday. I also own a P85 Sig that I drove over 12.000 miles both in the US and Europe with no such sound at all. It is totally quiet even at Autobahn speeds above 100 mph. Not the new one. :-(

Anyone who has the 60-75 mph hum please respond here | Forums | Tesla Motors

 

[EMDoc]

I have the exact same remarks comparing the P85+ loaner to my P85. But, I love the tight cornering of the + and am willing to sacrifice some ride quality. I found out from my San Diego Service Center that I may be able to do order the parts a la carte which is what I was hoping for. Therefore, if I go ahead and get the wider rear rims (when it comes time to replace the tires) along with the new control arms (and new Michelin tires), I should get about 80% of the +. This would be perfect as it will be a hybrid version of a P85 and the +. And on top of that, hopefully will only have to to buy two rims and save a couple grand (or more) off the entire retrofit asking price.

 

[iamshore]

My P85 with 19 inch tires is being serviced. Got a P85plus as a loaner. It has 19 inch snow tires. I noticed the same differences as Six within minutes of driving the car. I called to ask how I could upgrade my car and was told it is not likely. Only option is to trade mine in. I was a happier before I drove the plus.

 

[GregH]

Sigh. First off, thanks to all of you for your thoughtful commentary on this topic. Very informative insights, well articulated. Having said that... damn you!
I have (had) as S85 scheduled for Feb 5 delivery at the factory. Being a voracious researcher, I have poured through these forums at length. After a fitful night of sleep, mentally processing whether I was being shortsighted with my current order, I called my Delivery Specialist first thing to change my order to a fully loaded P85+. Thank you? :biggrin: