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Performance Plus Package now available as option or retrofit
- Thread starter Lyon
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- Driving Dynamics Model S
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
start up..... By definition they bite off more than they can chew. Successful ones deliver more than the good will they burn through.
They didn't have to announce the loaner program until it was ready and "stable". Instead they made it part of an official announcement, and now have dissatisfied owners. Completely unnecessary self-inflicted wound.
Tesla has many examples of this. When you make the same kinds of mistakes repeatedly, at some point you can't raise the "startup" excuse. You have to "grow up" as a company.
So Microsoft shouldn't announce the new Xbox for the holiday season unless they're sure they've produced enough so that everyone who wants one can get one?
This is straight up supply and demand. If the demand is hot, the supply will be short, especially if you're a small volume manufacturer. Tesla can't control demand. My guess is we've got pent-up demand that will drain. But if it doesn't, then we'll have to see whether Tesla can keep up with the demand or there will be a perpetual shortage of loaner cars.
Until then, I don't see much point in griping.
If you want to deal with a mature company and high-volume product, you should have bought a Camry.
At what point do Tesla supporters stop falling back on this argument, and actually challenge Tesla to grow into a mature company? Or should we just keep the expectation bar low for eternity?
I get the impression you think the rising of the stock price doesn't come with any responsibility either.
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I fail to see how this analogy applies.
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
Brian,
You are absolutely correct in that we need to hold Tesla to the standard they themselves have set. I got an email response on a (simple) issue where the responder said he had to check with his boss and then put Elon in parenthesis. If true, it would be absolutely insane for the CEO of a $10B company to have anything to do whatsoever with the question.
It is a matter of timing for me. I feel Tesla is still in the zero to some meaningful forward momentum stage and thus I am still willing to cut them significant slack. They are ramping delivery to Europe and marketing in Asia both of which are huge distractions at the same time they are doing another round and paying off Gov loans. They do need to learn to walk and chew gum at the same time but I can not help but remember that those really good at going from zero to something are not typically the best at stabilizing the something to something more phase (and yes, I know that is not an absolute rule but I've found it to be a good rule of thumb when evaluating management).
You are absolutely correct in that we need to hold Tesla to the standard they themselves have set. I got an email response on a (simple) issue where the responder said he had to check with his boss and then put Elon in parenthesis. If true, it would be absolutely insane for the CEO of a $10B company to have anything to do whatsoever with the question.
It is a matter of timing for me. I feel Tesla is still in the zero to some meaningful forward momentum stage and thus I am still willing to cut them significant slack. They are ramping delivery to Europe and marketing in Asia both of which are huge distractions at the same time they are doing another round and paying off Gov loans. They do need to learn to walk and chew gum at the same time but I can not help but remember that those really good at going from zero to something are not typically the best at stabilizing the something to something more phase (and yes, I know that is not an absolute rule but I've found it to be a good rule of thumb when evaluating management).
This isn't about excuses. This is about reality.
The challenge with Tesla is they are pushing the envelope on delivery models, service models, sales models, marketing approaches and I think, business model. (Know any other car company that runs service at break-even?)
No one gets this stuff right the first time. If you wait until it's perfect, you'll never do it. And even if you do think it's perfect, there's usually some kind of problem you won't find until you try it. Plus scale is a huge challenge. You always find issues as you scale something up and out.
So the usual sequence is "small scale pilot, see what's broken and adjust, scale, see what's broken and adjust, scale some more, see what's broken and adjust ..." until it finally works. And there's customers with bumps and bruises every step of the way.
With large companies, most consumers don't see the pilot and scale issues because large companies try new stuff out in a few markets/locations, and then roll out broadly in a series of steps. By the time you see the change, chances are the bugs have been worked out. Make no mistake, some customers who saw the change early saw problems. But with a large customer base, the odds are very low that you'd be one of them.
The issue with Tesla is it has to scale its processes but doesn't have enough customers to shield most of us from the breakage.
We are going to see the sausage being made.
Sometimes that's cool but most often it's not pretty. And that's not going to change until Tesla gets a lot more customers and has scaled out its basic operational infrastructure.
I have no doubt that a reasonable number of customers will get bruised and some bruised so badly that they'll go away. But if the company handles customer issues reasonably well, a fair number will be bruised and remain loyal or become even more loyal.
Speaking as a stockholder, my business bet is that the good intentions of Tesla's people, the awesomeness of the basic product (the Model S) and the clear corporate desire to keep fixing things until they get it right will carry them through in the long run. So far, I'm cautiously optimistic but we just have to see how it plays out.
The question each and every one of needs to ask ourselves is, "Can I stand being a customer of a company where I see immature processes, stuff get rolled out and then changed and people scrambling when there's problems?" In other words, "Can I stand being a customer of a company in the early stages of its growth?"
If you can't, my honest advice is that you shouldn't be one. Get a Camry or something for a few years because owning a Tesla during that time is going to drive you crazy.
The challenge with Tesla is they are pushing the envelope on delivery models, service models, sales models, marketing approaches and I think, business model. (Know any other car company that runs service at break-even?)
No one gets this stuff right the first time. If you wait until it's perfect, you'll never do it. And even if you do think it's perfect, there's usually some kind of problem you won't find until you try it. Plus scale is a huge challenge. You always find issues as you scale something up and out.
So the usual sequence is "small scale pilot, see what's broken and adjust, scale, see what's broken and adjust, scale some more, see what's broken and adjust ..." until it finally works. And there's customers with bumps and bruises every step of the way.
With large companies, most consumers don't see the pilot and scale issues because large companies try new stuff out in a few markets/locations, and then roll out broadly in a series of steps. By the time you see the change, chances are the bugs have been worked out. Make no mistake, some customers who saw the change early saw problems. But with a large customer base, the odds are very low that you'd be one of them.
The issue with Tesla is it has to scale its processes but doesn't have enough customers to shield most of us from the breakage.
We are going to see the sausage being made.
Sometimes that's cool but most often it's not pretty. And that's not going to change until Tesla gets a lot more customers and has scaled out its basic operational infrastructure.
I have no doubt that a reasonable number of customers will get bruised and some bruised so badly that they'll go away. But if the company handles customer issues reasonably well, a fair number will be bruised and remain loyal or become even more loyal.
Speaking as a stockholder, my business bet is that the good intentions of Tesla's people, the awesomeness of the basic product (the Model S) and the clear corporate desire to keep fixing things until they get it right will carry them through in the long run. So far, I'm cautiously optimistic but we just have to see how it plays out.
The question each and every one of needs to ask ourselves is, "Can I stand being a customer of a company where I see immature processes, stuff get rolled out and then changed and people scrambling when there's problems?" In other words, "Can I stand being a customer of a company in the early stages of its growth?"
If you can't, my honest advice is that you shouldn't be one. Get a Camry or something for a few years because owning a Tesla during that time is going to drive you crazy.
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I think we're missing each other here, rcc. I agree with most of your points.
In my mind there's a difference between "can you tolerate it enough to buy the vehicle" and "will you politely let stupid stuff happen without calling them on it". Yes and No to those two questions, respectively, does not imply cognitive dissonance.
There is no other car available to me (read: price range and expected usage) in the class of the Model S. That makes me a firm Yes to the first one and an increasingly annoyed "No" to the latter one.
In my mind there's a difference between "can you tolerate it enough to buy the vehicle" and "will you politely let stupid stuff happen without calling them on it". Yes and No to those two questions, respectively, does not imply cognitive dissonance.
There is no other car available to me (read: price range and expected usage) in the class of the Model S. That makes me a firm Yes to the first one and an increasingly annoyed "No" to the latter one.
I feel your pain, especially since you're a Signature owner and I think they got the messaging a bit mixed up there.
The messaging on the Signature value really should have been, "Be the cool kid on the block. Get one of the first. Years from now, this will be collector's item." Which is all true. I'm sure that a few decades from now, the Signatures will be collector's items. But the collector value is a long ways away.
The real value is the intangible value of being an early adopter. And in certain circles, the value is huge. I'm sure every Silicon Valley Signature owner working in venture capital is feeling pretty smug right now and has racked up many status points among his/her peers. I'm also sure that every EV fanatic that bought a Sig is thrilled to have been able to get their hands on an S early.
But from a pure price and practicality perspective -- those people who just want a car, the Signatures weren't a good deal. I love the Signature Red but sorry, it wasn't worth 10K to me.
Getting back on topic, yes, I expect the next few years to be a bit rocky. I'm fine with calling them on it when they mess up. I think the difference between you and me is that I expect some of that stuff to happen because I believe it's unavoidable. That limits my annoyance. Getting overly annoyed with them is like getting overly annoyed at winter because it's cold.
The messaging on the Signature value really should have been, "Be the cool kid on the block. Get one of the first. Years from now, this will be collector's item." Which is all true. I'm sure that a few decades from now, the Signatures will be collector's items. But the collector value is a long ways away.
The real value is the intangible value of being an early adopter. And in certain circles, the value is huge. I'm sure every Silicon Valley Signature owner working in venture capital is feeling pretty smug right now and has racked up many status points among his/her peers. I'm also sure that every EV fanatic that bought a Sig is thrilled to have been able to get their hands on an S early.
But from a pure price and practicality perspective -- those people who just want a car, the Signatures weren't a good deal. I love the Signature Red but sorry, it wasn't worth 10K to me.
Getting back on topic, yes, I expect the next few years to be a bit rocky. I'm fine with calling them on it when they mess up. I think the difference between you and me is that I expect some of that stuff to happen because I believe it's unavoidable. That limits my annoyance. Getting overly annoyed with them is like getting overly annoyed at winter because it's cold.
For the record, I wasn't even thinking about Signatures. I was talking just about the "now we have loaners, but not really. they're selling like hotcakes!" I still have mixed feelings about it. I'm happy for the Tesla sales, but dismayed about the damage it does to the ownership experience.
carrerascott
FUEL FTR
Just an update (I didn't see an update), my P85 is in for service, needed new tires anyway so thought I'd ask about the P85->P85+ Retrofit Upgrade.
$15,000 + tax
:scared:
Of course that includes new wheels tires, so I'd "save" $1k or so on my new tires I need.
But, I think I'll pass...
$15,000 + tax
:scared:
Of course that includes new wheels tires, so I'd "save" $1k or so on my new tires I need.
But, I think I'll pass...
Well, what are they selling the new wheels and tires for? just the P set is $8000 now. I'd imagine the staggered wheels are more.
I'd much rather have a P+ with a set of staggered 19" wheels than 21"...will they not let anyone do that?
I'd much rather have a P+ with a set of staggered 19" wheels than 21"...will they not let anyone do that?
dennis
Model S Plaid
Do you know if this is for the partial retrofit (rear bushings+wheels+tires) or the full retrofit that also includes the dampers and sway bars?
carrerascott
FUEL FTR
Don't know the full details, sorry. All I got was "all new wheels and tires are installed on the vehicle as well as rear bushing upgrades and additional parts."
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
I'd be willing to bet that is partial as the dampers are a good bit of cash and the bars require pulling the sub-frame.
Agreed. It's for the partial retrofit. The question is...maybe save a bit as only the rear two wheels will need to be replaced (if you already have the 21") and that should save a couple of grand. No reason to have all 4 wheels replaced. The PS2 alone are about 2200. So, the way I see it the difference would be about 11K or so plus taxes.
dennis
Model S Plaid
I don't think they will do that. The SC gets 4 fully assembled wheels and tires from inventory and puts them on reusing only your lug nuts. But they give you all the old parts back if you want them, otherwise they junk them since they can't sell used parts. I resold my 4 21's with Conti's (6K miles) for $2800.
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