Performance Upgrade Price Change!

[Daniel in SD]

Anyway, if I hear nothing more from Tesla by Christmas about my $5K Model 3 price differential, then I'll give them a little present - my $50K Base Model Roadster reservation cancellation. Besides, since it'll probably take them weeks or months to return my $50K, I'd better cancel it sooner rather than later!

Exactly right. I'm one of those for whom the tax credit is useless, for example. (I'm retired and don't make enough to take advantage of the credit.)

So, you have enough assets/income to buy a $60k car AND a $250k car but zero federal tax liability (and no way to realize enough capital gains to get your $7500?). You either have a really good accountant or a really bad one.

 

[Daniel in SD]

The symmetrical offer for P3D- offer should be: give up FUSC in exchange for the P3D+ upgrades - wheels, brakes, track mode, spoiler.

Totally impractical because P3D- did get wheels and brakes. It's not like you can return them and put them on a new car...
If the bigger wheels and brakes were worth $5k to them they would have paid $5k for them. I do think giving all performance owners the spoiler and pedals would be fair.

IMO it's the total lack of acknowledgment of P3D- buyers that is disappointing - we made a bigger leap of faith than the P3D+ buyers - we paid $11,000 for a software switch. It feels like this is not being recognized.

But this was known when you paid it! That's why I switched to AWD (once they offered the white interior). I'm upset because I would have paid the current price for the P3D. Maybe I deserve a refund

 

[ken830]

Even if both are valid, what is the more likely scenario... That I total the car within the first few months of ownership or resell the car sometime in the future.

It depends on whether you're using autopilot or not.

Haha!

I have three kids, one of which is 4 months old. My oldest just started Kindergarten, and because my wife is currently on maternity leave, I have to wake up at 6am to drive her 35 miles (40 to 45 minutes) to school, then drive another 40 miles in bumper-to-bumper traffic (2 hours) to work, then drive back home 40 miles (1 to 1.5 hours) in the evening. And that's just Tuesdays & Thursdays... Don't even get me started on M, W, F!

You have no idea how close to home your comment hits! With the exhaustion-to-sleep ratio that I'm running on lately, Autopilot can't possibly drive any worse than me!

 

[Vines]

Well a petition is certainly a more likely way to get attention than blocking the service centers with a sit-in or something lol. I realize that in reading this thread my opinion has shifted a bit, but one thing never changed.

I'm glad I bought the PUO/+/PUP/package that shall not be named.

I keep telling you guys you're going about this all wrong. Get Elon drunk tweeting and get Fred Lambert all riled up and angrily tweeting.

I'll have do another silly recap if we make it to 200 pages. *grabs popcorn

 

[Glamisduner]

I think Knightshade's right that P3D- owners' asking for a "refund" is nonsensical to a degree - because there's no payment to be refunded.

On the other hand, I think P3D- owners are entitled to want some kind of compensation.

After all, a P3D- owner has paid the exact same amount as a P3D+ owner who received the refund, but the P3D+ owner has received more "stuff." (wheels, brakes, track mode)

The symmetrical offer for P3D- offer should be: give up FUSC in exchange for the P3D+ upgrades - wheels, brakes, track mode, spoiler.

Money in lieu of this would be nice, but not necessary.

IMO it's the total lack of acknowledgment of P3D- buyers that is disappointing - we made a bigger leap of faith than the P3D+ buyers - we paid $11,000 for a software switch. It feels like this is not being recognized.

BTW: If offered the wheels & brakes, I would still choose not to upgrade, but I'd at least feel that I was given a reasonable alternative. I'd opt for track mode if it's possible to separate that from the hardware, but wouldn't be too put out if they say it can't.

2nd BTW: I think another option which would have been less offensive to me would have been to just screw everybody: no refunds for anyone - you have to buy at the price offered at the time. But for whatever reason, they chose to open that can of worms...

We all made the same leap of faith in my case I just bought EAP instead of PUP.

Other say it's not a refund it's a trade, with FUSC valued at $5k.

So if FUSC is worth $5k then why not offer it to P3D- too

 

[FlyNavy01]

I feel like my IQ drops every time I open this thread and yet somehow I still find myself clicking on it...

People should stop being whiney, entitled children and go enjoy their awesome car. Life goes on. That is all.

 

[Daniel in SD]

So if FUSC is worth $5k then why not offer it to P3D- too

Because only the people who were going to use less than $5k of supercharging would trade it in. Then Tesla would lose money because all the remaining FUSCers would be using more than $5k.
Personally I doubt it's worth $5k. It would be interesting to know how Tesla accounts for it as a liability.

 

[Knightshade]

I give just one example where it is measurable.

No, you didn't.

You gave one where you are GUESSING about the FUTURE used car value down the road.

Versus his point which was the actual insurance/replacement value right now if a car is totaled.

That second one is a real actually-exists-today number we know.

Yours is a guess about the future for which we have no current data.

How can someone claim that it's not measurable when it's clearly measurable. Logically, it's immeasurable if it can't be measured in any circumstance.

Your number can't be measured without a time machine.

Make you a deal- supply me a working time machine and I'll be happy to admit you're right.

If you don't have one then your number is not a real number- it's speculation about the future.

Your problem with my argument is that I'm only considering resale value (which I'm not). But then you're completely okay with JeffK only considering gap insurance total case?

Except, I'm not. And explicitly said I was not. In fact I said the opposite of what you claim.

Heck you QUOTED ME DOING IT.

What is your point? Do you think I'm crazy for only considering the resale value? Do you think JeffK is crazy for only considering the Gap Insurance total case? Because that's all he's using to argue that it's immeasurable and you're not calling him out! Effff....!!!!!! I think I broke my keyboard typing this.

Maybe go back and read it again? Because again you're accusing me of something I did the opposite of.

I pointed out only considering ONE specific valuation situation, to try and come up with a number "everyone" is owed is crazy.

JeffKs version does have the advantage over yours in that it's accurate right this second- and yours might be correct or might be grossly wrong, based on future values we don't know... but neither gives us an "everyone is entitled to X dollars!" figure (one way you can tell that's true is you arrived at vastly different figures).

 

[Knightshade]

Knightshade, you're ignoring several things, e.g.:

1. The hardware components of the PUP almost certainly cost more than $5,000 since the wheels alone cost $4,000 and the brakes and shocks etc will add substantially to that.

Uh...no.

First- they're $4000 by themselves.

They're not $4000 plus your 18" wheels and tires. Which is the trade the PUP gets you.

Ditto all the other parts.

2. The P3D- has been substantially devalued by the fact alone that it is discontinued only two months after it came out, and when you try to sell it in the future it will be harder because a tiny fraction of P3Ds will not have the bigger wheels, brakes, spoiler, etc on them and won't be what buyers are looking for

Since you know the exact future- can you give me next weeks powerball numbers real quick?

Seriously- it's happened in the past where a trim of car gets killed early and ends up worth more because people who want it have a limited pool from which to buy it.

It remains entirely speculation that the P3D- won't be in that group.

See again the fact all current P3D- buyers clearly preferred that config

So the idea no FUTURE buyer in the used market might also prefer that config is utter nonsense.

3. The P3D- has been further devalued by the recent revelation that the whole lot sorting thing was dishonest advertising by Tesla and that it is in fact identical hardware-wise (same parts including inverters and motors) to the regular AWD.

That's not particularly recent.

Folks (myself included) have been suggesting that exact thing for many months- with a decent amount of evidence to show and support it.

Like the fact they have to be the same parts to start with to be lot sorted.

The fact the P3D- owners who denied it for months are now finally admitting it doesn't really change that.

4. The P3D- has been further devalued (e.g., in eyes of potential future buyers) by Tesla indicating on multiple occasions that PUP is necessary to use Track Mode safely and sustainably, e.g., by saying in Aug that it wouldn't even come to the cars, phasing the version of the car out completely, and still not having pushed Track Mode to any of them.

Except Elon has explicitly reversed this and stated it would be coming to all performance cars (though the - version is taking longer)

In fact he did so right as 5k-gate was blowing up to address that exact concern. So again- not a real issue.


I already mentioned that if he doesn't keep his word on that then the - folks will finally have a real reason to be mad.

And I'll be first in line to agree they should be...as that's literally the only part of the PUP (if they do keep it exclusive to PUP) that would be worth a penny IMHO.... the wheels/brakes are downgrades compared to better options from the aftermarket.

In fact one might argue that it is clearer for P3D-.

One might- but it wouldn't make a lick of sense.

 

[Vines]

Wouldn't it be the greatest irony if the P3D- were worth MORE in the long run, as the average consumer concerns aren't likely reflected in this post. Average Joe that wants longest range (P3D-) low operating cost (P3D-) but the same 0-60 (Tie), and no problem with rim selection or snow tires (P3D-). See all the folks on the east coast who went P3D-

After all, historically the rare/discontinued cars are the oddballs and worth a premium.

 

[Knightshade]

This is semantics. Calling something with a different name just to make it sound like you got some valid argument.

Except you are, again, factually and demonstrably wrong.

"price change"

and

"discontinued"

are not the same thing.

Calling what happened by the correct name isn't "semantics" is "using the correct word for what actually happened"

Try it sometime!

You have none. You sound like a pro abortionist calling them selves "pro choice" because its more palatable.

...wow.

Lots of drama, not much facts or logic, in your posts man.

In the end its still killing a life just like this is killing the value of a P3D- by 5K

Yes, the idea of your car possibly being worth a few percent less is totally comparable to discussing the death of a baby.

Your argument is completely not overblown to an insane degree or anything!

Also- have you met me wife....Morgan Fairchild?

And this is not even taking into account the unfairness of it all by giving only some the promised "corrective action" as Elon put it and not others.

He gave a refund of 5k to everyone who actually paid 5k for the actual package that changed in price

There was no corrective action for anyone who did not buy that package at all

Your inability to notice this difference is simply baffling.

2. Those that don’t have the P3D Stealth and can’t see that those that did pay the extra $11k for the software unlock for an extra 1 sec 0-60 feel cheated and want some compensation.

Compensation for what?

You got exactly the car you ordered, for exactly the price you were expecting to get it for.

I’m in camp 1. Love my car and didn’t want the PUP, but definitely feel cheated that Tesla is giving $5k back to PUP’s and offering us nothing.

Yes, @Knightshade, I get it, we didn’t want PUP and didn’t pay for it, but still doesn’t sting that we get nothing.

You're getting nothing back for the PUP because you didn't buy the PUP


Here's another way to look at it.


Every single Model 3 owner has the chance to get a 100% refund of exactly the amount they paid for the PUP.


For you- that's $0.00.

Same for AWD and RWD owners.

For P3D+ owners it's $5000- and they have to give up FUSC (which you don't) get it.

 

[tomas]

It took a while, but I finally ignored @knightsomething. Forgot his name already!

 

[Knightshade]

Wouldn't it be the greatest irony if the P3D- were worth MORE in the long run, as the average consumer concerns aren't likely reflected in this post. Average Joe that wants longest range (P3D-) low operating cost (P3D-) but the same 0-60 (Tie), and no problem with rim selection or snow tires (P3D-). See all the folks on the east coast who went P3D-

After all, historically the rare/discontinued cars are the oddballs.

Yup.

I've mentioned that a couple times now... and also that if I were looking for a used P the - would be exactly what I'd be looking for (assuming track mode comes to it as promised anyway).

Heck back when the + pack was first split out there were tons of folks right on here (possibly some in this very thread) making a huge point of how happy they were at the - being available- how they felt the - the better car and wouldn't want the + stuff if it were free.

Now it IS free, and the same folks are mad about it.

It took a while, but I finally ignored @knightsomething. Forgot his name already!

Enjoy your echo chamber of refund bitterness

 

[whatthe2]

Except you are, again, factually and demonstrably wrong.

"price change"

and

"discontinued"

are not the same thing.

Calling what happened by the correct name isn't "semantics" is "using the correct word for what actually happened"

Try it sometime!




...wow.

Lots of drama, not much facts or logic, in your posts man.





Yes, the idea of your car possibly being worth a few percent less is totally comparable to discussing the death of a baby.

Your argument is completely not overblown to an insane degree or anything!

Also- have you met me wife....Morgan Fairchild?




He gave a refund of 5k to everyone who actually paid 5k for the actual package that changed in price

There was no corrective action for anyone who did not buy that package at all

Your inability to notice this difference is simply baffling.






Compensation for what?

You got exactly the car you ordered, for exactly the price you were expecting to get it for.




You're getting nothing back for the PUP because you didn't buy the PUP


Here's another way to look at it.


Every single Model 3 owner has the chance to get a 100% refund of exactly the amount they paid for the PUP.


For you- that's $0.00.

Same for AWD and RWD owners.

For P3D+ owners it's $5000- and they have to give up FUSC (which you don't) get it.

Yep, already said that, as I said in my post. Doesn't change the fact the us P Stealth owners feel slighted. At the end of the day, do I really care, nope. Love my car. Just pointing out the fact the some of us P Stealther's feel a bit cheated. You may not agree with it, or see it our way, but it doesn't change how we feel. Will I lose any sleep over it, nope.

 

[Knightshade]

Yep, already said that, as I said in my post. Doesn't change the fact the us P Stealth owners feel slighted. At the end of the day, do I really care, nope. Love my car. Just pointing out the fact the some of us P Stealther's feel a bit cheated. You may not agree with it, or see it our way, but it doesn't change how we feel. Will I lose any sleep over it, nope.

To be clear here....

I get "$5000 package I didn't buy is now free" might make someone feel slighted.

I'd suggest something like "We will now offer the track mode package to - buyers" is a reasonable response (and literally the one Elon made)

Whereas "The $5000 package I didn't buy is now free so I deserve a $5000 check for NOT buying it" is.... less reasonable.

 

[whatthe2]

To be clear here....

I get "$5000 package I didn't buy is now free" might make someone feel slighted.

I'd suggest something like "We will now offer the track mode package to - buyers" is a reasonable response (and literally the one Elon made)

Whereas "The $5000 package I didn't buy is now free so I deserve a $5000 check for NOT buying it" is.... less reasonable.

I hear ya, you've said it like a 1000 times. If you don't understand that those of us that spent $11k on P Stealth and don't get any relief when those that spend $11k + $5k on PUP get relief, then I don't know how to explain it to you. You see it your way, we see it ours, simple as that. We see it as we should get some compensation as well, regardless of the fact they actually spent money on additional hardware.

 

[ken830]

No, you didn't.

You gave one where you are GUESSING about the FUTURE used car value down the road.

Versus his point which was the actual insurance/replacement value right now if a car is totaled.

That second one is a real actually-exists-today number we know.

Yours is a guess about the future for which we have no current data.



Your number can't be measured without a time machine.

Make you a deal- supply me a working time machine and I'll be happy to admit you're right.

If you don't have one then your number is not a real number- it's speculation about the future.




Except, I'm not. And explicitly said I was not. In fact I said the opposite of what you claim.

Heck you QUOTED ME DOING IT.





Maybe go back and read it again? Because again you're accusing me of something I did the opposite of.

I pointed out only considering ONE specific valuation situation, to try and come up with a number "everyone" is owed is crazy.

JeffKs version does have the advantage over yours in that it's accurate right this second- and yours might be correct or might be grossly wrong, based on future values we don't know... but neither gives us an "everyone is entitled to X dollars!" figure (one way you can tell that's true is you arrived at vastly different figures).

I understand what you're saying, but you are not understanding me. First of all, I am 100% sure I will either sell my car in the future or total it. Secondly, it is also 100% certain that I will not be making a a gap insurance claim because I have no gap insurance, and have no need for it.

Now, which one is more certain or concrete? How is his thing about gap insurance more "actual"? Or how is it more "actual" than my example? How does he know everyone with a Model 3 performance has gap insurance? The point is it's going to a measurable difference in a lot of cases. And not measurable in a few cases. So, that means it exists.

His example is a good one. And in his setup, there is no measurable difference as he claims. I believe it to be fairly true. But it only applies to a vary narrow set of people and circumstances. First, you would have to be in a situation where gap insurance makes sense (generally if you make a small down payment and have a long loan term). Secondly, you'd have to actually buy gap insurance. Thirdly, you'd have to total the car. Fourth, it would have to be totaled at a time in the vehicle's life where the loan amount happens to exceed the value of the car for gap to kick in.

Your number can't be measured without a time machine.

Make you a deal- supply me a working time machine and I'll be happy to admit you're right.

If you don't have one then your number is not a real number- it's speculation about the future.

Deal!

You need a time machine to go forward in time to this said future? *Snaps fingers* You are currently sitting (or standing, or lying down, or whatever-ing) in said time machine -- this universe. You can now travel to any point in time in the future you desire. Want to travel 10 years in the future? No problem. The time machine works "real-time", so you'll get there in 10 years...

Remember... you need to be happy while you admit I'm right.

 

[ken830]

To be clear here....

I get "$5000 package I didn't buy is now free" might make someone feel slighted.

I think we're actually not that far apart. I don't feel I deserve $5k, but I don't think the PUP guys did either. But I do feel we should have something if the PUP guys got $5k for FUSC trade-in, because that made our pain worse than if Tesla did nothing at all. I would like a partial PUP upgrade or a credit or something. The track mode thing is not it, though.

 

[Roys3]

So, you have enough assets/income to buy a $60k car AND a $250k car but zero federal tax liability (and no way to realize enough capital gains to get your $7500?). You either have a really good accountant or a really bad one.

Ha! I was waiting for someone to catch that.

It works like this: 1) Get a good education, 2) Earn well early, 2) Save, save, save (& invest well), 3) Live very frugally (never buy a new car!), 3) Retire early, 4) Have a fat Roth IRA, 5) Have a tsunami wipe out your major asset - your floating home (large tax write-off good for 20 years).

In short: Strive to be relatively asset-rich, and relatively income-poor. I highly recommend it but it takes time, discipline, and the right combination of both bad and good luck...

There's much more to say about exactly how to do it - but that's for another thread.

 

[Glamisduner]

I think we're actually not that far apart. I don't feel I deserve $5k, but I don't think the PUP guys did either. But I do feel we should have something if the PUP guys got $5k for FUSC trade-in, because that made our pain worse than if Tesla did nothing at all. I would like a partial PUP upgrade or a credit or something. The track mode thing is not it, though.

Track mode, spoiler and pedals at minimum! Granted I don't care about pedals and spoiler.