PG&E just dropped a $3400 paired storage NEM outta nowhere

[AllThingsT3sla]

I’m still trying to figure out what’s going on…

A month or so ago they dropped a ~$1700 credit, also outta nowhere. Then last night the paired storage nem charge of -$3400. So we have a bill of ~$1700.

This is NOT the annual true up.

Anyone experience else experience this? No recourse or way to question the charge?

My setup:

5.5 kW non-tesla PV system -2015
6.0 kW tesla PV system 2022
Both systems feed:
Dual PowerWalls 2022

 

[miimura]

That is what my "Blue Bill" looks like when my Annual True-Up hits. You really need to look at your Paired Storage "Black and White" bill to see what has been going on.

 

[AllThingsT3sla]

Can someone explain Paired Storage NEM fees and why they are completely separate from annual true up?
Am I being penalized for paying a small fortune to install batteries which helps make PG&E's Grid more stable?
Were PowerWalls a dumb decision?

I think I'd rather pay $1700 than to try and understand these 42 pages that explain the paired storage rate fee here:
https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_NEM2.pdf

How does anyone understand any of this?

 

[Redhill_qik]

Can someone explain Paired Storage NEM fees and why they are completely separate from annual true up?

Sticky thread:

NEM-PS Annual True-Up Calculation [PG&E example]

I was having difficulty in understanding where all the elements came from in my annual true-up bill and reached out the both @miimura and @Redhill_qik for some insight. From our discussions a document was created that is copied into this post. This document explains the factors that determine...

teslamotorsclub.com

Am I being penalized for paying a small fortune to install batteries which helps make PG&E's Grid more stable?

No you aren't being penalized, you just didn't realize that you were importing a lot and charges were accumulating and reported on the B&W bill.

Were PowerWalls a dumb decision?

No, but you might not be using them in the best way. You owed at your annual true-up, so you are a net consumer. You should be looking at optimizing the use of your Powerwalls to minimize any imports during Peak to minimize your charges and if you have the Export Everything option you should look at using that option to discharge the Powerwalls at the start of Peak to maximize your credits.

I think I'd rather pay $1700 than to try and understand these 42 pages that explain the paired storage rate fee here:
https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_NEM2.pdf

There are no extra fees for paired storage.

How does anyone understand any of this?

PG&E provides no information on tracking the annual true-up when you have paired storage. This information is there, but there is zero education or explainers available and it catches a lot of people off guard.

 

[AllThingsT3sla]

Called PG&E and they explained it.
April True Up $1800
June Credit (Bill Correction) -$1800
August True Up - Take Two - $3400

I guess my family is simply using to much kWh...

Anyone switch from TOU to EV-A rate and find a savings?

 

[Redhill_qik]

Called PG&E and they explained it.
April True Up $1800
June Credit (Bill Correction) -$1800
August True Up - Take Two - $3400

I guess my family is simply using to much kWh...

Anyone switch from TOU to EV-A rate and find a savings?

I would say that your solar array is undersized for your usage versus that your family is using too much. Your usage is high compared to my usage (9,130 kWh peak), but might be inline with others in this forum. What was your usage pre-solar and what was the annual production estimate?

You can't be on EV-A, but you could be on EV2. I'm on E-TOU-C and without solar it would be cheaper for me than EV2. I am an annual net producer, so it doesn't matter in either case. My scenario may not be same as your scenario. If you want anyone to comment with any degree of insight then you need to post these two tables from your B&W annual true-up bill.

TRUE-UP HISTORY SUMMARY:

TOU Energy History:

 

[holeydonut]

I would say that your solar array is undersized for your usage versus that your family is using too much. Your usage is high compared to my usage (9,130 kWh peak), but might be inline with others in this forum. What was your usage pre-solar and what was the annual production estimate?

You can't be on EV-A, but you could be on EV2. I'm on E-TOU-C and without solar it would be cheaper for me than EV2. I am an annual net producer, so it doesn't matter in either case. My scenario may not be same as your scenario. If you want anyone to comment with any degree of insight then you need to post these two tables from your B&W annual true-up bill.

TRUE-UP HISTORY SUMMARY:
View attachment 963003

TOU Energy History:
View attachment 963004

How much solar can he add (or the wind blows the panels onto his roof) without bumping him out of NEM 2.0?

Assuming more solar isn't an option (35 panels is a lot for most people not named h2ofun)... I think we also need to understand what amount of the net imported energy is due to charging Tesla(s). My gut is telling me that @whiteM3SRplus is a net importer due to in-home BEV charging. Like if he blew through 4 MWh of BEV charging last year, that'd be worth about $1,500.

So if his 2 Powerwalls are able to reasonably bridge home-demand from 3pm to midnight on most days, then he'd benefit switching to EV2-A as a rate plan so his net imports are at the cheapest rate possible. 4 MWh imported off-peak charging BEVs at midnight under EV2A would be be like $1,000 instead of $1,500.

 

[AllThingsT3sla]

confession: i have an electric dryer that let's just say, runs all day long due to several young kiddos (more than 5 less than 9)
hybrid electric hot water heater: runs most of the day in heat pump mode
1 Model Y

 

[Redhill_qik]

How much solar can he add (or the wind blows the panels onto his roof) without bumping him out of NEM 2.0?

My understanding is that you can add 10% or 1kW whichever is greater, but I can't find the wording in the NEM 3 document. The OP has 11.5kW of PV, so could add 1.15kW more PV (3x 380W panels or swap older panels with better panels) without getting bumped to NEM 3.0.

I would like to see the actual wording to see if there is a "camel's nose under the tent" possibility. Add 3 panels, get approval, add another 3 panels get approval, etc. If the wording doesn't include something to the effect of "as of April 15, 2023" or "as of last PTO prior to April 15, 2023" it might be possible, but will likely piss off IOUs.

 

[BGbreeder]

confession: i have an electric dryer that let's just say, runs all day long due to several young kiddos (more than 5 less than 9)
hybrid electric hot water heater: runs most of the day in heat pump mode
1 Model Y

Probably worth looking into heat pump water heating; heat pump dryers are a more complicated issue. Both will save you lots energy, and probably money, and there are funds potentially available through the IRA, and California programs.

 

[miimura]

My understanding is that you can add 10% or 1kW whichever is greater, but I can't find the wording in the NEM 3 document. The OP has 11.5kW of PV, so could add 1.15kW more PV (3x 380W panels or swap older panels with better panels) without getting bumped to NEM 3.0.

I would like to see the actual wording to see if there is a "camel's nose under the tent" possibility. Add 3 panels, get approval, add another 3 panels get approval, etc. If the wording doesn't include something to the effect of "as of April 15, 2023" or "as of last PTO prior to April 15, 2023" it might be possible, but will likely piss off IOUs.

Any "repair" at any point cannot exceed the parameters you gave (+10% or +1.0kW whichever is greater) of the original PTO in order to remain under the original NEM tariff of that PTO. Also, the calculation is based on CEC AC Watts. That is the PTC DC Watts of the panel(s) times the CEC efficiency of the inverter.

 

[h2ofun]

Any "repair" at any point cannot exceed the parameters you gave (+10% or +1.0kW whichever is greater) of the original PTO in order to remain under the original NEM tariff of that PTO. Also, the calculation is based on CEC AC Watts. That is the PTC DC Watts of the panel(s) times the CEC efficiency of the inverter.

I believe if one increases, and does not say anything, the worst that happens is if you generate more than has been approved, you just lose the credit above that amount. That is what happened to me.

 

[buckets0fun]

Probably worth looking into heat pump water heating; heat pump dryers are a more complicated issue. Both will save you lots energy, and probably money, and there are funds potentially available through the IRA, and California programs.

hybrid water heaters are heat pump and conventional.

OP:
Some have an energy saver setting all the way to high demand, explore the app (if new), change water temp into the low 120 range if you're on an older one.

 

[sorka]

confession: i have an electric dryer that let's just say, runs all day long due to several young kiddos (more than 5 less than 9)
hybrid electric hot water heater: runs most of the day in heat pump mode
1 Model Y

My heat pump water heater is averaging about 1 kwh a day currently during the summer. In the middle of winter, it's about 2 kwh / day. Do you have recirc pump that is on constantly?

Note that first two weeks on the left after installing it is because I ran electric only for a few days when we had guests and like 5 showers a day so I wanted a fast recovery.

 

[holeydonut]

Called PG&E and they explained it.
April True Up $1800
June Credit (Bill Correction) -$1800
August True Up - Take Two - $3400

I guess my family is simply using to much kWh...

Anyone switch from TOU to EV-A rate and find a savings?

Get that Emporia Vue that Sorka just posted from so you can measure the heavy-load circuits using energy during various times of day. This will help you tune some consumption and maybe find some major offenders that you weren't aware of.

Somewhere you should be able to find how much your Model Y charged while you were at home over the last year. I don't have any more jank-azz Teslas, so I can't remember where to find that information, but IIRC it was buried somewhere that you could see your home EV charging kWh vs public kWh.

I suspect you charged around 4,000 kWh last year at home. If so, I think you're a good candidate to switch your rate plan to EV2-A. If your EV charging were basically zero; then ignore the following.

The people who get absolutely screwed by EV2-A are those that don't have Powerewalls, since the savings from EV charging at night are offset by expensive energy use during peak time (3pm to midnight). If your 2 Powerwalls are able to provide enough kWh discharge from 3pm to midnight, then you should consider EV2-A as a new rate plan.

While you may still be a net importer, when you import you want your energy as cheap as possible. But EV2-A is very punitive for energy imports between 3pm and midnight... which is why it's important to have Powerwalls to provide energy during that time.

 

[AllThingsT3sla]

I would say that your solar array is undersized for your usage versus that your family is using too much. Your usage is high compared to my usage (9,130 kWh peak), but might be inline with others in this forum. What was your usage pre-solar and what was the annual production estimate?

You can't be on EV-A, but you could be on EV2. I'm on E-TOU-C and without solar it would be cheaper for me than EV2. I am an annual net producer, so it doesn't matter in either case. My scenario may not be same as your scenario. If you want anyone to comment with any degree of insight then you need to post these two tables from your B&W annual true-up bill.

TRUE-UP HISTORY SUMMARY:
View attachment 963003

TOU Energy History:
View attachment 963004

Here you go:

 

[AllThingsT3sla]

Probably worth looking into heat pump water heating; heat pump dryers are a more complicated issue. Both will save you lots energy, and probably money, and there are funds potentially available through the IRA, and California programs.

My hybrid is a heat pump. I think Hybrid just means it has three modes: pure heat pump, pure electric element (5kW), both

 

[AllThingsT3sla]

hybrid water heaters are heat pump and conventional.

OP:
Some have an energy saver setting all the way to high demand, explore the app (if new), change water temp into the low 120 range if you're on an older one.

Mine is from 2022 the Rheem one from HomeDepot, we set it to 135 to get longer tank usage, but I will look going back down to 120 and taking shorter showers!

 

[Redhill_qik]

Mine is from 2022 the Rheem one from HomeDepot, we set it to 135 to get longer tank usage, but I will look going back down to 120 and taking shorter showers!

I have a 2022 Rheem 80 gallon hybrid (XE80T10HS45U0) set to Energy Saver and have it set to 138F with a mixer that takes it down to 124F going into the house pipes. The average usage is 1.97 kWh/day over the 22 months.

 

[Redhill_qik]

Here you go:
View attachment 963477
View attachment 963478

A couple of quick observations:

• Your annual true-up was for 15 months instead of 12 months, so this is higher than it might otherwise be
• You are importing a lot (14,117 kWh) and your net is also high (7,684 kWh) resulting in NBCs of $412.31 alone
  • About half of the NBCs are offset as they are also included in your Energy Charges total
• You had two different tariffs E6 and E-TOUC-C during this period

Using your data, it does look like you would have saved about $1,000 by switching to EV2 from E-TOU-C during this 15 month period. Below is a my quick estimate, but you might want to pull just a year's worth of PG&E Green Button hourly data and confirm the impact of the Partial Peak hours.

	Summer Peak	Summer Part	Summer Off	Winter On	Winter Part	Winter Off	Total
2023-07	-34		169				135
2023-06	-8		31	-42		122	103
2023-05				-19		570	551
2023-04				242		1080	1,322
2023-03				215		1134	1,349
2023-02				324		1053	1,377
2023-01				454		1328	1,782
2022-12					140	1068	1,208
2022-11					102	712	814
2022-10	63	-9	641		3	97	795
2022-09	-41	-236	139				-138
2022-08	-80	-274	126				-228
2022-07	-44	-271	190				-125
2022-06	-17	-27	-13		-67	-543	-667
2022-05					-65	-529	-594
Total	-161	-817	1283	1174	113	6092	7,684
EV2	$0.58411	$0.47392	$0.27190	$0.45730	$0.44060	$0.27190
	-$94.04	-$387.19	$348.85	$536.87	$49.79	$1,656.41	$2,110.69
E-TOU_-C	$0.53420	$0.44896	$0.44896	$0.42969	$0.40134	$0.40134
	-$86.01	-$366.80	$576.02	$504.46	$45.35	$2,444.96	$3,117.98