Phantom braking so bad I want to return my car

[Fourdoor]

No, it won't.

So, all the video's of a Tesla leaving a stop light and the car engaging EAB to avoid someone running the red light are what?

You are saying one of two things, please clarify:

Are you saying the person in the Tesla leaving the stop light is not using the accelerator? (possible if they are on FSD)

OR

Are you saying the videos are faked in some way?

Keith

 

[sleepydoc]

No, it won't.

I don't know if this was technically EAB or not, but I've had the brakes kick in on me when I was trying to get a bit closer to the car in front of me at a stoplight. I had TACC on and it had stopped a fair distance back and I was trying to move forward to let someone into the turn lane and the car didn't like it.

 

[CyberGus]

Automatic Emergency Braking — a new Collision Avoidance Assist feature — is designed to
automatically engage the brakes to reduce the impact of an unavoidable frontal collision.
Automatic Emergency Braking will stop applying the brakes when you press the accelerator pedal, press
the brake pedal, or sharply turn the steering wheel.

https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/tesla_model_s_software_6_2.pdf

I take this to mean that AEB will disengage if the driver changes the controls, but will deploy even if the gauss pedal is down. If you're not pressing the accelerator (and not in TACC/AP) then you're stopped anyway.

 

[MP3Mike]

So, all the video's of a Tesla leaving a stop light and the car engaging EAB to avoid someone running the red light are what?

You are saying one of two things, please clarify:

Are you saying the person in the Tesla leaving the stop light is not using the accelerator? (possible if they are on FSD)

OR

Are you saying the videos are faked in some way?

No, I'm not saying either of those things. Those people don't have the accelerator pedal floored like you were saying.

 

[Fourdoor]

No, I'm not saying either of those things. Those people don't have the accelerator pedal floored like you were saying.

How do you know? Pretty common when a Tesla is first in line at a stop light to drive off aggressively. In that situation if you drive off aggressively and someone coming the other way runs the stop light EAB will engage and either reduce the force of, or completely prevent the collision. It is a fantastic feature.

I have the same feature in my Chevy Bolt (that does not have adaptive cruise BTW) and it prevented my wife from hitting our house when she was first learning to drive (she never needed to get a license before we married). She made the turn into our driveway too fast, panicked and floored the accelerator instead of the brake... the car EAB system intervened and stopped the car just short of hitting our front porch.

Keith

 

[PACEMD]

I would return my car too, also, if it were into breaking phantoms. Let me tell you right now, a broken phantom is no laughing matter.

 

[WhiteWi]

The TACC system is not a safety feature

It is safety feature. You didn’t see videos of Tesla avoiding getting rear ended or side swapped? That is traffic aware thing of your ACC.

 

[stopcrazypp]

How do you know? Pretty common when a Tesla is first in line at a stop light to drive off aggressively. In that situation if you drive off aggressively and someone coming the other way runs the stop light EAB will engage and either reduce the force of, or completely prevent the collision. It is a fantastic feature.

I have the same feature in my Chevy Bolt (that does not have adaptive cruise BTW) and it prevented my wife from hitting our house when she was first learning to drive (she never needed to get a license before we married). She made the turn into our driveway too fast, panicked and floored the accelerator instead of the brake... the car EAB system intervened and stopped the car just short of hitting our front porch.

Keith

I think you probably mean AEB instead of EAB, but the feature you describe is not AEB in a Tesla. It's Obstacle Aware Acceleration:

Model 3 Owner's Manual | Tesla

Learn about Collision Avoidance Assist and its specifications.

www.tesla.com

AEB does not handle the situation you describe (it's a different feature).

Also for the traffic light scenario:
"Automatic Emergency Braking does not apply the brakes, or stops applying the brakes, when:

• You turn the steering wheel sharply.
• You press and release the brake pedal while Automatic Emergency Braking is applying the brakes.
• You accelerate hard while Automatic Emergency Braking is applying the brakes."

It does not say it has to be a change in the operation, just that you have to "accelerate hard" which I presume is flooring it or close. Most people don't floor it when they take off on a traffic light.

 

[drtimhill]

One of the most annoying things about TACC is that it is NOT reacting to an emergency situation and saving my life...

... yet.

 

[tm1v2]

... yet.

So glad it phantom brakes now to save my butt in the future!

To be fair I don't get too much phantom braking from VO TACC in my usage, I get some but it's not terrible for me by any means. (Yes it's clearly really bad for many here!) What's really bad for me is how slow it is to speed up when a large gap opens up....it's literally stressful to watch its ultra slow, cautious reaction and stress watching & thinking about how other drivers around me are reacting to its slowness. Other ACC systems handle that better and smoother, including AP1 and AP2+ radar-based TACC if I recall correctly from loaner cars.

VO TACC is also not great about how it slows down when approaching slower traffic, though that certainly improved some with the December software updates. It was horribly late to brake before those updates, like a really aggressive driver trying to scare the slower driver in front. I don't remember radar-based TACC ever being that bad...well maybe in the early AP2 days...

 

[Fourdoor]

I think you probably mean AEB instead of EAB, but the feature you describe is not AEB in a Tesla. It's Obstacle Aware Acceleration:

Model 3 Owner's Manual | Tesla

Learn about Collision Avoidance Assist and its specifications.

www.tesla.com

AEB does not handle the situation you describe (it's a different feature).

Also for the traffic light scenario:
"Automatic Emergency Braking does not apply the brakes, or stops applying the brakes, when:

• You turn the steering wheel sharply.
• You press and release the brake pedal while Automatic Emergency Braking is applying the brakes.
• You accelerate hard while Automatic Emergency Braking is applying the brakes."

It does not say it has to be a change in the operation, just that you have to "accelerate hard" which I presume is flooring it or close. Most people don't floor it when they take off on a traffic light.

Ummm, that is exactly what it is says.

IF you read what you quoted yourself it says "If you accelerate hard while AEB is applying the brakes". It does not say "if you are accelerating hard BEFORE AEB applies the brakes AEB will not activate"

As much as I bitch and moan about PB, I think Tesla has some top notch safety systems... I just want them to perfect them before releasing them to the public.

Not sure how this can be misinterpreted. AEB works a lot better than you think it does.

Keith

 

[TomServo]

Honda Accord, CR-V Under Investigation by NHTSA Over Phantom Braking

The issue could affect as many as 1.7 million vehicles built from 2017 to 2019.

www.cnet.com

 

[MP3Mike]

Honda Accord, CR-V Under Investigation by NHTSA Over Phantom Braking, 1.7 million cars being recalled.

And there are 6 reports of crashes, with injuries, as a result of the Honda system: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2022/INOA-PE22003-5540.PDF

I guess there goes the argument that no other OEM has vehicles that exhibit phantom braking.

It will be interesting to see the results of both of these investigations and how the OEM responds.

 

[drtimhill]

And there are 6 reports of crashes, with injuries, as a result of the Honda system: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2022/INOA-PE22003-5540.PDF

I guess there goes the argument that no other OEM has vehicles that exhibit phantom braking.

It will be interesting to see the results of both of these investigations and how the OEM responds.

Tesla: We will be pushing an OTA update in the next 10 days.
Honda: Bring your car into the dealer for an update sometime in the next 6 months, which should take less than 5 hours while you drink bad coffee and watch Fox News.

 

[tm1v2]

And there are 6 reports of crashes, with injuries, as a result of the Honda system: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2022/INOA-PE22003-5540.PDF

I guess there goes the argument that no other OEM has vehicles that exhibit phantom braking.

It will be interesting to see the results of both of these investigations and how the OEM responds.

This also makes it clear NHTSA considers the collision risk from unexpected/unnecessary automated braking to be a safety issue.

This recall is a good sign for the standards these systems should meet in the long term. I'm not saying that perfection should be required, or is even possible, but I think the tradeoffs could be better than what we're all experiencing in our VO AP cars.

 

[MP3Mike]

This also makes it clear NHTSA considers the collision risk from unexpected/unnecessary automated braking to be a safety issue.

No, it makes it clear that they want to determine if it is a safety issue or not.

This recall is a good sign for the standards these systems should meet in the long term. I'm not saying that perfection should be required, or is even possible, but I think the tradeoffs could be better than what we're all experiencing in our VO AP cars.

There is no recall, at least not yet. Just a preliminary investigation to see if a full investigation, or recall, is warranted.

 

[sleepydoc]

I think you probably mean AEB instead of EAB

What about BEA (Braking emergently automatically)?

Life of Brian - The People's Front of Judea

 

[drtimhill]

This recall is a good sign for the standards these systems should meet in the long term. I'm not saying that perfection should be required, or is even possible, but I think the tradeoffs could be better than what we're all experiencing in our VO AP cars.

I think the basic problem is no-one knows. Clearly severe PB needs to be addressed, but how many PB reports are just slight slow-downs, and how many are genuine braking that the driver thinks is phantom because the car saw something the driver missed?

What the NHTSA needs to do is establish some baseline of what constitutes a "significant" braking event (how severe the braking is), and then try to determine (how?) what percentage of these are phantom (defined as a "significant" braking event with no actual external cause).

 

[drtimhill]

What about BEA (Braking emergently automatically)?

ACB (Ass Clenching Braking)?

 

[sleepydoc]

You didn’t see videos of Tesla avoiding getting rear ended or side swapped?

No. Waiting for the video of someone getting rear ended from phantom braking, though. Also, the manual mentions nothing about accelerating/moving out of the way to avoid a car coming from the rear.

I guess there goes the argument that no other OEM has vehicles that exhibit phantom braking.

No one has argued that other vehicles don't exhibit phantom braking, just that the problem is much worse and more frequent in teslas. If you look, you can find stories of false AEB activations in pretty much make.