Phantom braking so bad I want to return my car

[sleepydoc]

Well, all I know is that before Tesla introduced the Obstacle Aware Acceleration (read the manual on it), people were crashing their cars into walls by mistaking the accelerator pedal with the brake pedal. AEB did nothing about it (contrary to what you are saying).
Tesla V9 Has New Feature To Prevent Unintended Acceleration

Interesting side note - most of us remember the 'unintended acceleration' scandal in Toyotas several years ago, and many will remember it happening in Audis back in the 80's. It turns out that the brakes on a car are stronger than the accelerator. Even if you have the pedal to the floor the brakes will still stop the car so all of those cases were driver error. Systems like Obstacle Aware Acceleration will hopefully prevent or at least mitigate the effects of driver error, even if they're not perfect.

 

[CaseyL]

Ok, serious question, is phantom breaking just a modern high-tech version of ghostbusting? And what about all that phantom barking that gets mentioned here? How does that play in?

If I remember correctly, the vast majority of those reporting phantom barking have dogs at home who are mad at being left there.

 

[PACEMD]

If I remember correctly, the vast majority of those reporting phantom barking have dogs at home who are mad at being left there.

Right, and what about dog mode? Does that not mitigate all that phantom barking?

 

[CyberGus]

I hear dogs barking in my head every time someone rings the doorbell

 

[WhiteWi]

Come on now. If I was making those joke peps on other side would call me troll and trying to hide really dangerous problem.

 

[WhiteWi]

Can’t you clearly see Millions of Tesla suffer from phantom of the opera.

 

[sleepydoc]

Can’t you clearly see Millions of Tesla suffer from phantom of the opera.

Now I know what happened to your face!

 

[SilentWarp]

Brake checking is illegal, and in our modern time with the proliferation of dash cams it is much more likely to be judged as the car in front's fault than the car in the rear IF the car in the rear has a dash cam that shows you braking for no reason causing the collision.

If the car in the rear does not have a dash cam, you can just deny that the car aggressively braked for no reason, claiming that you hit the brakes for a squirrel in the road or some other excuse.

Keith

Uh, how do you prove a brake check? A guy stepped on his brakes, "thought he saw a cat".

 

[sleepydoc]

Uh, how do you prove a brake check? A guy stepped on his brakes, "thought he saw a cat".

Many times you can't but dash cams make it much easier -

(the first case is even a Tesla!)

 

[stopcrazypp]

Interesting side note - most of us remember the 'unintended acceleration' scandal in Toyotas several years ago, and many will remember it happening in Audis back in the 80's. It turns out that the brakes on a car are stronger than the accelerator. Even if you have the pedal to the floor the brakes will still stop the car so all of those cases were driver error. Systems like Obstacle Aware Acceleration will hopefully prevent or at least mitigate the effects of driver error, even if they're not perfect.

To be fair, if the accelerator pedal was stuck (like on a floor mat) and the brakes being applied was not swift and full to the floor (some people may pump them), the brakes can overheat after a while and thus not be able to stop the car (this happens a lot at race tracks).

I don't think the organizations testing tested for that scenario. They all essentially tested based on pressing the brakes in full at one go.

 

[tm1v2]

To be fair, if the accelerator pedal was stuck (like on a floor mat) and the brakes being applied was not swift and full to the floor (some people may pump them), the brakes can overheat after a while and thus not be able to stop the car (this happens a lot at race tracks).

I don't think the organizations testing tested for that scenario. They all essentially tested based on pressing the brakes in full at one go.

@stopcrazypp The brake pads shouldn't overheat if they're just holding the wheels still. Maybe the fluid would after a while from the constant pressure?

On the cars in question you could just switch them off very quickly with a twist of the key though, right? Well before any kind of brake overheating would be an issue.

Now on a Tesla where you'd have to fiddle around on the touch screen to turn it off while moving...that doesn't sound good! Holding the Park button should kick it out of drive in a few seconds though, but still doesn't feel as reliable as switching off an old school key ignition.

 

[stopcrazypp]

@stopcrazypp The brake pads shouldn't overheat if they're just holding the wheels still. Maybe the fluid would after a while from the constant pressure?

Except they are not just holding the wheels still. Holding the wheels still only applies if the person was able to fully stop the car in one or two tries (the scenario organizations simulate). That only works if you apply full braking force all at once to the car stopping. What I'm talking about is someone that was applying brakes, but not enough to fully stop the car. In this case, the brake pads are converting friction to heat while fighting the engine. The car might slow or stop gaining speed, but when they let off, it may speed up again. With enough time, this leads to overheated brakes. Once this happens the brakes will have a hard time stopping the car even without the engine providing forward power, much less with it at full throttle. This is the same thing that happens at the race track.

On the cars in question you could just switch them off very quickly with a twist of the key though, right? Well before any kind of brake overheating would be an issue.

Feds Point to Stuck Gas Pedal in Lexus Crash
Most cars today have keyless ignition, and this was the case also for the headlining Lexus crash during the height of the Toyota controversy. The person didn't know how to turn off the engine in an emergency. It had to be done with a software button that you have to hold for 3 seconds, something few people would know about without reading the manual.

Now on a Tesla where you'd have to fiddle around on the touch screen to turn it off while moving...that doesn't sound good! Holding the Park button should kick it out of drive in a few seconds though, but still doesn't feel as reliable as switching off an old school key ignition.

Holding the park button works and also applies the electronic rear brake. You can also throw the shifter into neutral. I think that's probably as quick if not quicker than switching off the ignition (in a gas car) and doesn't come with the risk of losing power steering. Plus Tesla has brake override (what Toyota added later to address the issue too), so if you press the brake, it reduces motor power to much lower (enough to creep the car up a hill with slight brake application, but not enough for the car to maintain significant momentum on even moderate brake application).

 

[Fourdoor]

Uh, how do you prove a brake check? A guy stepped on his brakes, "thought he saw a cat".

And before dash cams that would have been all you needed to say... now you still might get away with it, but you are not 100% in the clear like it used to be.

Keith

 

[riles246]

AFAIK, the phantom triggering of AEB has neither injured nor killed anyone. Meanwhile, how many lives have been saved by correct usage of AEB? I'm guessing it's more than zero.

My guess is that Tesla focusing on FSD beta, on the assumption that PB will be resolved when autonomous features are integrated into a single stack.

Here is what appears to be the first. Was ‘Phantom Braking’ Responsible For Tesla Fatality In Missouri Or Was It Another Issue? | Torque News

After experiencing phantom braking firsthand, I can confidently say that there will definitely be more deaths as a result of this. When the Model Y I was driving phantom braked, it was a HARD stop, and terrifying for all occupants in the car. If there were someone on my tail we surely would have been in an accident.

I was so excited to borrow my father's Model Y Performance for the week but I honestly never want to drive that car again. I was relieved to get home to my 2015 Model S with AP1, which has never phantom braked in my entire ownership.

 

[drtimhill]

Here is what appears to be the first. Was ‘Phantom Braking’ Responsible For Tesla Fatality In Missouri Or Was It Another Issue? | Torque News

After experiencing phantom braking firsthand, I can confidently say that there will definitely be more deaths as a result of this. When the Model Y I was driving phantom braked, it was a HARD stop, and terrifying for all occupants in the car. If there were someone on my tail we surely would have been in an accident.

I was so excited to borrow my father's Model Y Performance for the week but I honestly never want to drive that car again. I was relieved to get home to my 2015 Model S with AP1, which has never phantom braked in my entire ownership.

So, we have the usual press speculation, which you then turn into "appears to be the first" (making an assumption about a speculation), which in the next sentence becomes "there will be more" (thus implying your assumption about speculation is now fact). You should be working for Putin's press department!

Right now, no-one knows what the cause is .. it could be PB, it could be the driver, it could be mechanical failure. At some point, we will find out .. until then, using this incident to forward an agenda about PB seems foolish to me.

 

[CaseyL]

After experiencing phantom braking firsthand, I can confidently say that there will definitely be more deaths as a result of this. When the Model Y I was driving phantom braked, it was a HARD stop, and terrifying for all occupants in the car. If there were someone on my tail we surely would have been in an accident.

When you say hard stop, that implies the car violently came to a complete stop at zero mph. Is this what you are saying?

After 10,000 miles in my Model Y, with a lot of those on TACC and AutoSteer on Interstates, I've had a few PB slowdowns but never, ever, experienced a sudden brake to a complete stop.

I honestly don't think the car is capable of this.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

When you say hard stop, that implies the car violently came to a complete stop at zero mph. Is this what you are saying?

After 10,000 miles in my Model Y, with a lot of those on TACC and AutoSteer on Interstates, I've had a few PB slowdowns but never, ever, experienced a sudden brake to a complete stop.

I honestly don't think the car is capable of this.

A sudden brake to a full complete stop is usually a Automatic Emergency braking.

It's rare, but it does happen. It's been at the heart of numerous recalls from various manufactures.

I've only experienced it one time in my Jeep Wrangler when I was doing down a ramp to a parking garbage. It slammed on the brakes because it saw the wall, and assumed I was going to run into it. It didn't realize the road dipped under.

I didn't experience any false automatic emergency braking with my 2015 Model S or my 2018 Model 3, and I also haven't experience false automatic emergency braking with my 2018 Sprinter Van. Heck I haven't even had a false FCW in the van which is really impressive. I get one on occasion with my Jeep, and all the time in my Model 3.

I would caution people against not believing someone's story as there are a lot differences that can explain what's happening.

Tesla Vision is only on fairly new vehicles or FSD Beta vehicles.
FSD Beta vehicles have two different SW stacks so we should be keeping those stories different.
Undivided highways seem to cause issues with Tesla Vision vehicles.

 

[stopcrazypp]

So, we have the usual press speculation, which you then turn into "appears to be the first" (making an assumption about a speculation), which in the next sentence becomes "there will be more" (thus implying your assumption about speculation is now fact). You should be working for Putin's press department!

Right now, no-one knows what the cause is .. it could be PB, it could be the driver, it could be mechanical failure. At some point, we will find out .. until then, using this incident to forward an agenda about PB seems foolish to me.

When I saw the report on this, I figured there will be people who will rush to conclusions in terms of the phantom brake issue, but as others point out, there is no evidence either TACC or AP will bring a car to a complete emergency stop to 0 mph from highway speeds (certainly haven't seen that reported).

 

[drtimhill]

I would caution people against not believing someone's story as there are a lot differences that can explain what's happening.

It isnt not a bad thing you dont not have lots of double negatives not in that

 

[CyberGus]

It isnt not a bad thing you dont not have lots of double negatives not in that

And yet, to this day we still don't know if anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like.