Picking up car issues?

[dmurphy]

A year ago, that was true. But as months pass, there are more and more decent EV alternatives. As an example, when I neared the end of my search for an car, I would have purchased a Hyundai Kona over a Model 3 simply because of delivery/build issues.

In 34 months, or less, I will get another car. It will be an EV. It will probably not be a Tesla simply because of stories like this.

It's not even the EV that's the magic. It's the software.

EVERY other manufacturer is basically an assembler - they take, say, Denso's engine controller, a Tremec transmission controller, Delco HVAC controller, Bosch's airbag controller, etc.... and then try to write software in front of all of it. Programming all of those is a logistical and physical nightmare.

The vertical integration of Tesla is what I'm most impressed with. As good as the EV drivetrain is (and it is) -- the fact that Tesla is really engineering almost the whole vehicle is what impresses me most.

Counter-point: My wife's Buick Enclave has a programming issue with the start-stop technology on the engine. Once every so often (who knows how often that is?) - a firmware bug crops up where it loses track of the current value of the camshaft position sensors. So when it restarts, the engine stumbles and bucks. Shutdown and restart clears the issue. They're currently "investigating a fix" - but have been for a year ...

Flipside, if this were Tesla's gas engine (bear with me) - they'd have a firmware update pushed down in days. While I sleep, and the vehicle's in my driveway.

Buick - once they actually work with all the suppliers to develop a fix, is going to need to develop a "calibration", send it out to all of their dealerships, send me a notice in the regular mail, then I'll have to schedule time to bring it into the dealership for hours, while they attempt to flash it until it works.

And THAT is the magic behind Tesla. Electric drive and battery etc is awesome of course - but the full vertical integration is the REAL differentiator ...

 

[TIppy]

It's not even the EV that's the magic. It's the software.

EVERY other manufacturer is basically an assembler - they take, say, Denso's engine controller, a Tremec transmission controller, Delco HVAC controller, Bosch's airbag controller, etc.... and then try to write software in front of all of it. Programming all of those is a logistical and physical nightmare.

The vertical integration of Tesla is what I'm most impressed with. As good as the EV drivetrain is (and it is) -- the fact that Tesla is really engineering almost the whole vehicle is what impresses me most.

Counter-point: My wife's Buick Enclave has a programming issue with the start-stop technology on the engine. Once every so often (who knows how often that is?) - a firmware bug crops up where it loses track of the current value of the camshaft position sensors. So when it restarts, the engine stumbles and bucks. Shutdown and restart clears the issue. They're currently "investigating a fix" - but have been for a year ...

Flipside, if this were Tesla's gas engine (bear with me) - they'd have a firmware update pushed down in days.

And THAT is the magic behind Tesla. Electric drive and battery etc is awesome of course - but the full vertical integration is the REAL differentiator ...

Not to mention their engineers are really good. They waltzed in and in a matter of days were able to embarrass Porsche on their home turf on which they have decades of experience.

 

[Petrocelli]

It's not even the EV that's the magic. It's the software.

EVERY other manufacturer is basically an assembler - they take, say, Denso's engine controller, a Tremec transmission controller, Delco HVAC controller, Bosch's airbag controller, etc.... and then try to write software in front of all of it. Programming all of those is a logistical and physical nightmare.

The vertical integration of Tesla is what I'm most impressed with. As good as the EV drivetrain is (and it is) -- the fact that Tesla is really engineering almost the whole vehicle is what impresses me most.

Counter-point: My wife's Buick Enclave has a programming issue with the start-stop technology on the engine. Once every so often (who knows how often that is?) - a firmware bug crops up where it loses track of the current value of the camshaft position sensors. So when it restarts, the engine stumbles and bucks. Shutdown and restart clears the issue. They're currently "investigating a fix" - but have been for a year ...

Flipside, if this were Tesla's gas engine (bear with me) - they'd have a firmware update pushed down in days. While I sleep, and the vehicle's in my driveway.

Buick - once they actually work with all the suppliers to develop a fix, is going to need to develop a "calibration", send it out to all of their dealerships, send me a notice in the regular mail, then I'll have to schedule time to bring it into the dealership for hours, while they attempt to flash it until it works.

And THAT is the magic behind Tesla. Electric drive and battery etc is awesome of course - but the full vertical integration is the REAL differentiator ...

Thank you for the thoughtful response.

I am not doubting that a Tesla has advantages over a Hyundai. But this thread concerns delivery issues. Because I would be returning a car at the end of a lease, I would have no car on a firm date. After that, I would need a car for commuting and business.

If Tesla does not deliver a vehicle on time, that would be a major problem for me. Based on what I have read here, that it is a common problem.

If the car has flaws and I reject it, then I may have to wait for another car. That means I have to rent a car for some period of time (which would eat up my gas savings rather quickly.)

I am a risk averse person. Given these risks, I decided I could not own a Tesla now. In three years, however, it is a definite possibility.

 

[MikeR55]

Thank you for the thoughtful response.

I am not doubting that a Tesla has advantages over a Hyundai. But this thread concerns delivery issues. Because I would be returning a car at the end of a lease, I would have no car on a firm date. After that, I would need a car for commuting and business.

If Tesla does not deliver a vehicle on time, that would be a major problem for me. Based on what I have read here, that it is a common problem.

If the car has flaws and I reject it, then I may have to wit for another car. That means I have to rent a car for some period of time (which would eat up my gas savings rather quickly.)

I am a risk averse person. Given these risks, I decided I could not own a Tesla now. In three years, however, it is a definite possibility.

This is the same reason I waited to order a Tesla 3, till I thought all these issues were resolved. Obviously they're not. I was seriously looking into the Hyundai, as well. It seems like a great car

 

[TIppy]

Thank you for the thoughtful response.

I am not doubting that a Tesla has advantages over a Hyundai. But this thread concerns delivery issues. Because I would be returning a car at the end of a lease, I would have no car on a firm date. After that, I would need a car for commuting and business.

If Tesla does not deliver a vehicle on time, that would be a major problem for me. Based on what I have read here, that it is a common problem.

If the car has flaws and I reject it, then I may have to wait for another car. That means I have to rent a car for some period of time (which would eat up my gas savings rather quickly.)

I am a risk averse person. Given these risks, I decided I could not own a Tesla now. In three years, however, it is a definite possibility.

I had an issue with a lexus a few years ago on delivery where they damaged the car while driving it onto a transport. They said they could repair it, but I wanted an undamaged car. For the configuration I wanted, it was going to take a couple of weeks to locate a new car. I just extended the lease on the current car another month.

As I mentioned earlier, I think reading about problems here gives an unrealistic impression of the typical transaction with Tesla.

 

[MikeR55]

Well I think also posting problems here make sure that others don't have the same problems. While I saw it was very important to do a pre-check of the car, nobody explain to me on here, that no matter what Tesla tells you if you sign anything it's yours. The person checking me and yesterday told me they cannot contact the service center until I sign receiving the car, and then told me that doesn't mean that I can't exchange a VIN number, when that was exactly what it meant. So Tesla gave me wrong information and everybody here needs to know that they will not contact the service center until you sign something, so don't sign something, and if you get a new car that needs a service center, just exchange it. Even if it's a tiny little thing if the word service center comes up, don't take the car

 

[TIppy]

Well I think also posting problems here make sure that others don't have the same problems. While I saw it was very important to do a pre-check of the car, nobody explain to me on here, that no matter what Tesla tells you if you sign anything it's yours. The person checking me and yesterday told me they cannot contact the service center until I sign receiving the car, and then told me that doesn't mean that I can't exchange a VIN number, when that was exactly what it meant. So Tesla gave me wrong information and everybody here needs to know that they will not contact the service center until you sign something, so don't sign something, and if you get a new car that needs a service center, just exchange it. Even if it's a tiny little thing if the word service center comes up, don't take the car

I understand you got bad information, but yours is just a single example of the thousands of transaction that Tesla does every day. This just isn't indicative of what everyone else will encounter. I can't express to you the total gigantic piles of B.S. I got from every previous car dealer I ever dealt with. The purchase of my three previous Teslas was a far better experience.

 

[MikeR55]

I understand you got bad information, but yours is just a single example of the thousands of transaction that Tesla does every day. This just isn't indicative of what everyone else will encounter. I can't express to you the total gigantic piles of B.S. I got from every previous car dealer I ever dealt with. The purchase of my three previous Teslas was a far better experience.

Totally, dealing with Car Sales is always a horrendous thing. Just pointing out for people to be careful. Surprisingly Tesla was similar to a used car experience. And that can definitely happen

 

[OCR1]

Thank you for the thoughtful response.

I am not doubting that a Tesla has advantages over a Hyundai. But this thread concerns delivery issues. Because I would be returning a car at the end of a lease, I would have no car on a firm date. After that, I would need a car for commuting and business.

If Tesla does not deliver a vehicle on time, that would be a major problem for me. Based on what I have read here, that it is a common problem.

If the car has flaws and I reject it, then I may have to wait for another car. That means I have to rent a car for some period of time (which would eat up my gas savings rather quickly.)

I am a risk averse person. Given these risks, I decided I could not own a Tesla now. In three years, however, it is a definite possibility.

Tesla has plenty of inventory. If you get a car with issues it’s very easy to just move on and request another VIN. I’ve done it several times now.

While people who are buying these cars tend to obsess over 2mm panel gaps or minor scratches that can be buffed out, I don’t see the point in getting stressed about these things on a lease. You’re just renting the car for 2-3 years. You can’t buy it at the end of the lease anyway, so worrying about resale value on a car with a swapped out bumper is not applicable to leases. But with plenty of inventory I don’t see this being an issue anyway.

Here’s the question I would ask to Mercedes/BMW/Lexus owners. How many of you would be willing to put up with all of the delivery, service and reliability issues mentioned in this forum and still insist you would never switch to another brand? If your Mercedes purchase and ownership experience was a dreadful as some of the posters on this forum would you have kept going back and leasing more of them?

And yet if you ask the members here who have posted their absolute worst nightmare experiences in dealing with Tesla, virtually every one of them said they still absolutely love the car and would never go back to their prior ICE vehicle.

Even Consumer Reports, who constantly bashes Tesla, acknowledges that Tesla has been #1 in overall consumer satisfaction several years in a row.

So if the customer experience is a bad as people have described in countless posts here, why does Tesla consistently rank above Mercedes, BMW and Lexus in overall customer satisfaction?

And by the way, while Tesla is ranked #1, Mercedes is ranked #22.

Car Brands Ranked by Owner Satisfaction

 

[WilliamG]

Thank you for the thoughtful response.

I am not doubting that a Tesla has advantages over a Hyundai. But this thread concerns delivery issues. Because I would be returning a car at the end of a lease, I would have no car on a firm date. After that, I would need a car for commuting and business.

If Tesla does not deliver a vehicle on time, that would be a major problem for me. Based on what I have read here, that it is a common problem.

If the car has flaws and I reject it, then I may have to wait for another car. That means I have to rent a car for some period of time (which would eat up my gas savings rather quickly.)

I am a risk averse person. Given these risks, I decided I could not own a Tesla now. In three years, however, it is a definite possibility.

None of the problems are common problems. The vocal minority is vocal. That is all. 99% of buyers will tell you you're missing out. Three years is too long to wait. Life is short.

 

[MikeR55]

It is odd that there are still these problems after two years of manufacturing. Panels not matching up that much? That's a lot. Paint coming off the car, off the assembly line, I'm not sure how common that really is? Will Tesla ever fix their manufacturing issues?

 

[Petrocelli]

And yet if you ask the members here who have posted their absolute worst nightmare experiences in dealing with Tesla, virtually every one of them said they still absolutely love the car and would never go back to their prior ICE vehicle.

Even Consumer Reports, who constantly bashes Tesla, acknowledges that Tesla has been #1 in overall consumer satisfaction several years in a row.

So if the customer experience is a bad as people have described in countless posts here, why does Tesla consistently rank above Mercedes, BMW and Lexus in overall customer satisfaction?

And by the way, while Tesla is ranked #1, Mercedes is ranked #22.

Your points are all valid for the average person. However, I am not the average person. I'm me. I am risk averse. I can't be in a situation where I do not have a car even for a day. This figured prominently in my thinking when considering a new car.

As for customer satisfaction surveys . . . I am more interested in reliability than customer satisfaction. But again, that's my preference.

 

[Petrocelli]

None of the problems are common problems. The vocal minority is vocal. That is all. 99% of buyers will tell you you're missing out. Three years is too long to wait. Life is short.

Don't fret too much for me. In the interim, I am driving a Mercedes C300 Coupe. It's luxurious, comfortable, and can haul a** when necessary.

 

[MikeR55]

Don't fret too much for me. In the interim, I am driving a Mercedes C300 Coupe. It's luxurious, comfortable, and can haul a** when necessary.

Go Sox!

 

[WilliamG]

Don't fret too much for me. In the interim, I am driving a Mercedes C300 Coupe. It's luxurious, comfortable, and can haul a** when necessary.

Honestly the same thing as saying you drive a horse and cart. But... to each his own.

 

[Petrocelli]

Honestly the same thing as saying you drive a horse and cart. But... to each his own.

Maybe. But it's a very nice horse. And when the horse hurts itself, I can get a loaner horse. And also, when I call the stable, I can get a live person on the phone. Although, admittedly, it eats a lot of hay.

 

[TIppy]

Maybe. But it's a very nice horse. And when the horse hurts itself, I can get a loaner horse. And also, when I call the stable, I can get a live person on the phone. Although, admittedly, it eats a lot of hay.

You're going to need to call the stable if my experience with mb was any indication. I had more problems with them than I've had with my Teslas.

 

[dmurphy]

As for customer satisfaction surveys . . . I am more interested in reliability than customer satisfaction. But again, that's my preference.

If reliability is paramount, then you should be in an Audi A4, BMW 3-series, Buick Regal or Acura TLX. All of those rated higher in the "luxury compact" category.

It's perfectly OK to say "a Model 3 just wasn't for me, not right now, and maybe never"... no need to self-justify it.

(and ps - if you move up to the midsize class, the most reliable is the Lincoln Continental. The E-Class sits behind a whole pile of vehicles.

 

[OCR1]

Your points are all valid for the average person. However, I am not the average person. I'm me. I am risk averse. I can't be in a situation where I do not have a car even for a day. This figured prominently in my thinking when considering a new car.

As for customer satisfaction surveys . . . I am more interested in reliability than customer satisfaction. But again, that's my preference.

My comment was not a reflection on you, but rather your post. A potential buyer who comes to this forum can read your comments and get a very skewed version of the overall Tesla ownership experience. And since you don’t own one, I felt it was important to present an alternate point of view to anyone who is trying to decide between Tesla and the ICE alternatives.

As for reliability, the C300 is rated 3/5. The Tesla is rated 2/5. So at face value the Mercedes is marginally more reliable. But if you look at the Tesla Model 3 data that Consumer Reports presents it makes no sense. While the overall reliability rating is 2/5, not a single category scores below 3. And for that matter, the Model 3 scored a perfect 5/5 in 14 out of a total 17 categories.

There were two categories where the car was downgraded to 4/5: in car electronics, and paint and trim.

And there was one category where the car was rated 3/5: body hardware.

Not one category was rated 2 or below. Yet the overall reliability was 2/5. To further complicate things, the car was rated 5/5 for engine major, engine minor, engine cooling, transmission major, transmission minor, and fuel system.

Does anyone see a problem with this? Well, the car doesn’t have an engine...or a transmission. Yes, it has a “fuel system” called a battery. Is that what Tesla is rating here? Who knows.

My point is you can’t really know what to make of the CR reliability data on a Model 3.

But for a car being leased it will be under warranty the entire time, just like the Mercedes. So in the end, there must be something causing the “average” consumer to rate Mercedes #22 and Tesla #1. I get that you are not the “average” buyer, but you are certainly not the only risk averse buyer in the survey, nor the only one concerned with reliability.

 

[Petrocelli]

If reliability is paramount, then you should be in an Audi A4, BMW 3-series, Buick Regal or Acura TLX. All of those rated higher in the "luxury compact" category.

It's perfectly OK to say "a Model 3 just wasn't for me, not right now, and maybe never"... no need to self-justify it.

(and ps - if you move up to the midsize class, the most reliable is the Lincoln Continental. The E-Class sits behind a whole pile of vehicles.

Just so we are clear, I absolutely love the Model 3. (And that's based on only a 30 minute drive.) It's Tesla's customer service I worry about, particularly in West Los Angeles. As I have said in other posts, I the local service center wasn't overwhelmed, I'd probably get a Tesla.

Also, my inquiry into tesla has convinced me to get an EV for my next car. I am hoping the Mercedes EQA will be out by then. So that's a good thing too.