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Poll: Tesla US EV Federal Tax Credit ends Q1 or Q2 ???

Will the US EV Federal Tax Credit reach it's 200,000 phaseout milestone in Q1 or Q2 2018?

  • Q1 2018

    Votes: 8 8.4%
  • Q2 2018

    Votes: 87 91.6%

  • Total voters
    95
  • Poll closed .
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No, that's probably not true. When a car is delivered, equitable title is transferred. Regardless of how long the paperwork takes.

As the IRS says repeatedly: it depends on state law. The states so far quoted seem to have it be based on a properly-executed transfer of the Title/MSO.

Maine:
Title 29-A, §662: Transfer of interest in vehicle

The Maine Man said:
4. Transfer effective. Except as provided in section 664-A and between the parties, a transfer by an owner is not effective until the provisions of this section and section 665 have been fulfilled and the required fees have been paid. An owner who has delivered possession of the vehicle and has complied with this section and section 665 is not liable thereafter as owner for damages resulting from operation of the vehicle.

664-A relates to sales by a dealer.
665 is involuntary transfer.

But that darned "the required fees have been paid". I _think_ it's a catchall applicable to the _vendor_, but it would be nice if it were a bit more specific.
 
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As the IRS says repeatedly: it depends on state law. The states so far quoted seem to have it be based on a properly-executed transfer of the Title/MSO.

Maine:
Title 29-A, §662: Transfer of interest in vehicle



664-A relates to sales by a dealer.
665 is involuntary transfer.

But that darned "the required fees have been paid". I _think_ it's a catchall applicable to the _vendor_, but it would be nice if it were a bit more specific.

Sure, but once it is effective (all conditions fulfilled), when is the transfer said to have happened? Did you legally own the car the day after you bought it?

Lame arguments:
Argument by analogy: Real estate purchases are not official until recorded, but the purchase date become the ownership date.

Argument by hypothetical: You crash the car 10 seconds after paying for it and driving off the lot, who's car was it, yours or the dealers?

Argument by appeal to absurdity: Is everyone who purchases in the month before a credit step change required to get the final filling date for their state to report that to the IRS? (for reference, the tax form asks for placed in service date).
 
Sure, but once it is effective (all conditions fulfilled), when is the transfer said to have happened? Did you legally own the car the day after you bought it?

IANAL.

My take is that you have acquired it once the transfer is effective, because _title_ has been transferred at that point.

Lame arguments:
Argument by analogy: Real estate purchases are not official until recorded, but the purchase date become the ownership date.

Lame, but would be a pointer to how they'd word it.

Argument by hypothetical: You crash the car 10 seconds after paying for it and driving off the lot, who's car was it, yours or the dealers?

Well, there's a contract, and then there's title. If the vendor actually didn't have the title, they can't execute a proper transfer, so it might make the contract invalid, so it wouldn't be yours. (Although they might, through contract, have the right to the title. Not actually _having_ the title happens quite a lot.) But you were driving it, so maybe it's still your problem.
If they screw up the paperwork, the transfer wasn't effective, so they still have some liability. But you did sign a contract, and they did have a right to sell it, so my guess would be that things would depend on the wording of the contract and a "you bought, you drove it, you broke it, your problem" would make sense. (California's wording you quoted seems to be more about the sale than the title.)

Argument by appeal to absurdity: Is everyone who purchases in the month before a credit step change required to get the final filling date for their state to report that to the IRS? (for reference, the tax form asks for placed in service date).

Plug In Electric Drive Vehicle Credit Section 30D | Internal Revenue Service
"You must have purchased it in or after 2010 and begun driving it in the year in which you claim the credit"

It goes as follows in various IRS wording:
- Placed in service is when you started using it (see above). That'll probably be the day it was delivered. That determines the _tax year_ of your claim
- Date acquired (determined by state law) determines _how much_ you can claim.
- Date acquired determines _when_ you can claim. (I'd previously thought you had to have the title, but the only verbiage I can find is about being the owner and having acquired it for your own use and not for resale).

Anyway, back to the main topic of the thread: I don't think acquisition of the vehicle really makes a difference to when Tesla hit the threshold, other than if Tesla actually _knows_ that there are enough _unqualified_ sales to delay everything to Q3. For example, anything purchased for resale is not (yet) qualified. If they have sold vehicles to a wholesaler which they know are for export, then they'd probably never be qualified.
 
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No, it's the date of delivery and payment, when the equitable title transfers.

From the text of the law itself:
"For purposes of the 30D credit, a vehicle is not considered acquired prior to the time when title to the vehicle passes to the taxpayer under state law."

The law is specific about when a credit counts to the taxpayer, but it's agonizingly vague about when it applies for phase out. I'm not a lawyer, but my SO is, and one of her greatest strengths is parsing laws. She spent years writing appeals and had to parse the minutiae of laws. I haven't asked her to look at this law (she's been swamped this week), but she did teach me a thing or two to look at.

Frequently laws will have omissions regulatory agencies will have to parse. The IRS does with tax law quite frequently. Laws hinge on what the definition of various terms are and when terms aren't defined in the law, somebody has to make a ruling on what the definition is.

For purposes of the 200K threshold, there does not appear to be a definition of "sold". However most of the time when something is undefined, but something similar is (as in this case "sold" and acquired") often the undefined term will be lumped in with the defined term. Though that isn't always the case. In some cases this is determined in court and in other cases the regulatory agency issues a clarification.

If there was any determination of the language, I would have expected some kind of public notice.

The problem is it appears the IRS has largely ignored the EV credit entirely. I came across an article from 2014 that claimed the IRS was not tracking car sales very well and linked to this page:
IRC 30D Plug In Electric Drive Motor Vehicle Credit Quarterly Sales | Internal Revenue Service

which has been maintained, but only tracks Ford, Mercedes, and BMW. The rest of the data from everyone else is nowhere to be found.

Ultimately we won't know one way or the other until there is an official announcement from someone. Clearly Tesla was working with a better set of data than any of us had and going over by a little bit at the end of the quarter just doesn't make sense for a company that is otherwise competent about these sorts of things.

Because Tesla owns the retail end as well as the manufacturing end, they should be able to control the threshold better than other OEMs that sell through dealers. The Bolts and Volts sitting on Chevy dealer's lots don't count until the dealer sells them, but GM doesn't have much control over when that happens. There was evidence Tesla was slowing some deliveries at the end of the quarter, which is further indication they knew the threshold was close and they were working to stay under for IRS determination.

I'll ask my SO to take a look and give her opinion. I'm still quite an amateur at parsing these things compared to her.
 
From the text of the law itself:
"For purposes of the 30D credit, a vehicle is not considered acquired prior to the time when title to the vehicle passes to the taxpayer under state law."

The law is specific about when a credit counts to the taxpayer, but it's agonizingly vague about when it applies for phase out. I'm not a lawyer, but my SO is, and one of her greatest strengths is parsing laws. She spent years writing appeals and had to parse the minutiae of laws. I haven't asked her to look at this law (she's been swamped this week), but she did teach me a thing or two to look at.

Frequently laws will have omissions regulatory agencies will have to parse. The IRS does with tax law quite frequently. Laws hinge on what the definition of various terms are and when terms aren't defined in the law, somebody has to make a ruling on what the definition is.

For purposes of the 200K threshold, there does not appear to be a definition of "sold". However most of the time when something is undefined, but something similar is (as in this case "sold" and acquired") often the undefined term will be lumped in with the defined term. Though that isn't always the case. In some cases this is determined in court and in other cases the regulatory agency issues a clarification.

If there was any determination of the language, I would have expected some kind of public notice.

The problem is it appears the IRS has largely ignored the EV credit entirely. I came across an article from 2014 that claimed the IRS was not tracking car sales very well and linked to this page:
IRC 30D Plug In Electric Drive Motor Vehicle Credit Quarterly Sales | Internal Revenue Service

which has been maintained, but only tracks Ford, Mercedes, and BMW. The rest of the data from everyone else is nowhere to be found.

Ultimately we won't know one way or the other until there is an official announcement from someone. Clearly Tesla was working with a better set of data than any of us had and going over by a little bit at the end of the quarter just doesn't make sense for a company that is otherwise competent about these sorts of things.

Because Tesla owns the retail end as well as the manufacturing end, they should be able to control the threshold better than other OEMs that sell through dealers. The Bolts and Volts sitting on Chevy dealer's lots don't count until the dealer sells them, but GM doesn't have much control over when that happens. There was evidence Tesla was slowing some deliveries at the end of the quarter, which is further indication they knew the threshold was close and they were working to stay under for IRS determination.

I'll ask my SO to take a look and give her opinion. I'm still quite an amateur at parsing these things compared to her.

Great post and assessment.

Going with history, Tesla always given quarterly numbers based on actual deliveries, perhaps to set the precedent for the number sold? If the system doesn't work off of the purchase date, that is going to be a mess...
 
Great post and assessment.

Going with history, Tesla always given quarterly numbers based on actual deliveries, perhaps to set the precedent for the number sold? If the system doesn't work off of the purchase date, that is going to be a mess...

When it comes to the US tax code, what isn't a mess? The IRS does do the best they can with what Congress passes, but just about every law has holes and the more complex the body of law, the more difficult it is to interpret. Some tax laws are deliberately difficult to interpret because they are a favor from some Congress person to someone they owe a favor to.

I once read in the mid-1960s Congress passed a tax break for people born in a certain town in a certain date range with an income over a certain level. The only person who qualified was Jackie Kennedy. I've never seen it confirmed, so it might be an urban legend, but there have been easter eggs slipped into the tax code at various times.

If Tesla did inadvertently go over 200K in June, I would have expected it by a small margin, not 5000. That tells me they know something we don't and they were working with a better data set than we have. But the silence on this is aggravating.
 
I expected Sept-Oct delivery and my car is now waiting to be picked up. So don't be surprised if you get your car earlier than you think. Good luck.
I'm assuming yours is RWD, then? You got lucky with getting a configuration that they already had a bunch of. I'm AWD, and the Ps are being delivered first. Either way, I'm hopeful that I'm somewhere in Oct, but as long as it's this year, that's good enough. But I'd take it yesterday if they had it. :)
 
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I once read in the mid-1960s Congress passed a tax break for people born in a certain town in a certain date range with an income over a certain level. The only person who qualified was Jackie Kennedy. I've never seen it confirmed, so it might be an urban legend, but there have been easter eggs slipped into the tax code at various times.
I once read a certain celebrity said, "Only stupid people pay taxes." I don't believe it because only a self purported very wealthy person would be so stupid.