Poll: Tesla US EV Federal Tax Credit ends Q1 or Q2 ???

[dhanson865]

My god this thread needs to be locked

Poll: Tesla US 200,000th sale in Q2 or Q3 ??? is a much more relevant thread now.

 

[Runt8]

I ordered my Model 3 July 7th for delivery in 3-5 months. Do they start halving starting September 30 for cars that are delivered or ordered?

If the phase out started in Q2 then you would need to take delivery by the end of September to get the full credit. Most people think that the phase out didn’t start until Q3, which means the full credit goes through the end of the year. There is a lot of evidence that this is the case but we won’t know for sure until Tesla makes an announcement.

 

[FlatSix911]

I believe no one will doubt that Tesla exceeds 200,000 car sale limit in US by now, it is so critical to selling as many cars as possible to keep Telsa float and becomes profitable this year. As today, there is no reservation needed for folks in North America to order Model 3 now, Tesla is trying their best to sell up to their maximum capacity for anyone in US to capture the last opportunity for $7500 tax credit before Sept 30!

You mean December 31.

No announcement has been made one way or another on whether Tesla has hit the 200K. There is another thread on when the tax credit expires and there has been a lot of parsing of the legal language: US Federal $7,500 Electric Vehicle Credit Expiry Date By Automaker

One key element of the original law is the car is sold for tax credit purposes based on when the title is transferred to the owner or financial institution, not when the paperwork is signed and the car handed over to the owner. Most states have a 10 day window to file the title transfer after a sale, so Tesla may have slow walked many of the late June sales so the titles don't transfer until early July. Another element of the law was the car needed to be put into service primarily in the US and cars bought in the US and exported to other countries don't count. At least some cars fell under that provision.

There were a lot of signs Tesla was slowing deliveries in late June and people in the know had mentioned top management was monitoring the number of US deliveries very closely. If Tesla blew it and went over 200K in June, they really screwed up big time. I'm 90% sure they didn't and the $7500 credit will last until Dec 31.

Tesla is probably waiting for confirmation from the IRS before saying anything.

The Climate Change Deniers/Tesla Delivery Deniers are out in force.
The Inside EVs data shows that Tesla delivered over 205K vehicles ... we are just waiting for the IRS confirmation next month.

The 6 Automakers Closest To Losing Federal Tax Credit

Why We Believe Tesla Passed 200k U.S. Deliveries in June

June 2018 Plug-In Electric Vehicle Sales Report Card

 

[TaoJones]

No, The phaseout calendar starts once 200,000th qualifying vehicle is delivered. Buyers still get the full tax credit in that quarter and the quarter that follows. Tesla reached 200,000th in Q2, the Telsa buyer will get full $7500 for Q3 delivery only!

And that would be exceptionally disappointing. And as far as we know, inaccurate.

Expectation is and has always been that Tesla crosses the threshold as close to July 1 as possible, thus facilitating a full HALF YEAR (less a day) of cojones-out production and as much of that for the domestic market as possible.

 

[FlatSix911]

I believe no one will doubt that Tesla exceeds 200,000 car sale limit in US by now, it is so critical to selling as many cars as possible to keep Telsa float and becomes profitable this year. As today, there is no reservation needed for folks in North America to order Model 3 now, Tesla is trying their best to sell up to their maximum capacity for anyone in US to capture the last opportunity for $7500 tax credit before Sept 30!

Tesla sold its 200,000th in June, not July, mark my word.

No, The phaseout calendar starts once 200,000th qualifying vehicle is delivered. Buyers still get the full tax credit in that quarter and the quarter that follows. Tesla reached 200,000th in Q2, the Telsa buyer will get full $7500 for Q3 delivery only!

Correct ... the published data supports this

 

[shrspeedblade]

I ordered my Model 3 July 7th for delivery in 3-5 months. Do they start halving starting September 30 for cars that are delivered or ordered?

The person you are asking/quoting is a TROLL- only 15 posts and has been confidently declaring the full tax credit will be ending 3rd quarter since early May. All should take any of their posts with a huge block of salt.

The real answer is no one knows for sure yet, logic would say Tesla wouldn't hit 200k in late June but we all know they were getting close. Keep in mind they're never going to declare PUBLICLY that's what they're doing, too much opportunity for negative spin/pushback. Until they announce it, everything is just speculation: the more confident the person sounds the more suspect you should be of them.

 

[duy.duck]

If the phase out started in Q2 then you would need to take delivery by the end of September to get the full credit. Most people think that the phase out didn’t start until Q3, which means the full credit goes through the end of the year. There is a lot of evidence that this is the case but we won’t know for sure until Tesla makes an announcement.

Well...3 month minimum means that it will be delivered Oct. I'm screwed.

 

[duy.duck]

The person you are asking/quoting is a TROLL- only 15 posts and has been confidently declaring the full tax credit will be ending 3rd quarter since early May. All should take any of their posts with a huge block of salt.

The real answer is no one knows for sure yet, logic would say Tesla wouldn't hit 200k in late June but we all know they were getting close. Keep in mind they're never going to declare PUBLICLY that's what they're doing, too much opportunity for negative spin/pushback. Until they announce it, everything is just speculation: the more confident the person sounds the more suspect you should be of them.

I'll keep my fingers crossed then. But what he said is not necessarily trolling. There are some pretty reasonable articles posted above stating Tesla likely passed 200,000k in June.

 

[shrspeedblade]

There are a surplus of pretty reasonable articles stating Tesla is about to go bankrupt, too.

This is just one lot in the Bay Area (Richmond) with over 500 Model 3s just prior to July 1. The video wouldn't load but I have a really great one on Twitter, message me for the link. Tesla looked really anxious to move cars as fast as possible. There were locations in Canada delivering dozens (if not more) of Model 3s daily. These are things KNOWN, so when someone says they KNOW that Tesla hit 200k U.S. deliveries in June of 2018 I call B.S.

 

[kengchang]

I'll keep my fingers crossed then. But what he said is not necessarily trolling. There are some pretty reasonable articles posted above stating Tesla likely passed 200,000k in June.

Click bait article...

 

[wdolson]

I ordered my Model 3 July 7th for delivery in 3-5 months. Do they start halving starting September 30 for cars that are delivered or ordered?

The full credit will probably still be in effect until the end of the year. But in any case the effective date for the credit is the date Tesla transfers the title.

I'll keep my fingers crossed then. But what he said is not necessarily trolling. There are some pretty reasonable articles posted above stating Tesla likely passed 200,000k in June.

The evidence Tesla was playing games with the number of cars delivered in June is all over the net as well as this forum. If they went over 200K in June is was due to gross incompetence and while Tesla isn't perfect, they don't have a track record of incompetence.

 

[duy.duck]

The full credit will probably still be in effect until the end of the year. But in any case the effective date for the credit is the date Tesla transfers the title.



The evidence Tesla was playing games with the number of cars delivered in June is all over the net as well as this forum. If they went over 200K in June is was due to gross incompetence and while Tesla isn't perfect, they don't have a track record of incompetence.

Haha, thanks guys for your reassurance. We'll watch and see.

 

[mongo]

The Climate Change Deniers/Tesla Delivery Deniers are out in force.
The Inside EVs data shows that Tesla delivered over 205K vehicles ... we are just waiting for the IRS confirmation next month.

The 6 Automakers Closest To Losing Federal Tax Credit

Why We Believe Tesla Passed 200k U.S. Deliveries in June

June 2018 Plug-In Electric Vehicle Sales Report Card

View attachment 316089

Yes, I say this a lot, because no one has addressed it:
1. How accurate are the Canada Delivery numbers? (Compare against reports in the International Center delivery thread)
2. Are government and export sakes excluded? If so, how many of the cars sold the last 8.5 years fall under that category?

Regarding the Title transfer timing, that's not how it works in Michigan (not that anyone buys Tesla's here). It is also not how any purchases work. You buy a car the day you pay and drive it off the lot, it may not be recorded yet, but once it is recorded, you legally owned it during that intervening period (what date ends up on the title?). Similarly, escrow on a house does not change purchase date.

 

[mongo]

No, The phaseout calendar starts once 200,000th qualifying vehicle is delivered. Buyers still get the full tax credit in that quarter and the quarter that follows. Tesla reached 200,000th in Q2, the Telsa buyer will get full $7500 for Q3 delivery only!

I get that you think the 200kth qualifying Tesla was sold in Q2. However, your use of "no" to my post seems to indicate that my post stated something inaccurate. What was it?

Premise: Trigger occured in Q3.

If they exceeded 200k sales to consumers/ taxpayers after June 30,

Conclusion: Quarter of trigger and following quarter get full credit (plus typo):

the 7,500 credit is good through the end if [of] the year.

The law and guidance:
Internal Revenue Bulletin: 2009-48 | Internal Revenue Service

26 U.S. Code § 30D - New qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicles

 

[wdolson]

Yes, I say this a lot, because no one has addressed it:
1. How accurate are the Canada Delivery numbers? (Compare against reports in the International Center delivery thread)
2. Are government and export sakes excluded? If so, how many of the cars sold the last 8.5 years fall under that category?

Regarding the Title transfer timing, that's not how it works in Michigan (not that anyone buys Tesla's here). It is also not how any purchases work. You buy a car the day you pay and drive it off the lot, it may not be recorded yet, but once it is recorded, you legally owned it during that intervening period (what date ends up on the title?). Similarly, escrow on a house does not change purchase date.

By state law I think most states consider the date you take ownership of the car the date you sign the paperwork, but for the purposes of the incentive credit, the IRS goes by the date the title paperwork was filed. we're dealing with two different government entities with two different sets of rules.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

By state law I think most states consider the date you take ownership of the car the date you sign the paperwork, but for the purposes of the incentive credit, the IRS goes by the date the title paperwork was filed. we're dealing with two different government entities with two different sets of rules.

To set phaseout quarter 1, the IRS goes by _sold_.
To determine how much credit the taxpayer gets, the IRS goes by the state law that determines the date _acquired_.

 

[mongo]

By state law I think most states consider the date you take ownership of the car the date you sign the paperwork, but for the purposes of the incentive credit, the IRS goes by the date the title paperwork was filed. we're dealing with two different government entities with two different sets of rules.

First off, the trigger date is based on sold, and the credit data is based on acquired .

Second, the title transfer based on State law does not mean when the final bit of paper is processed.

IRS terminology:

.07 Acquired. A vehicle is not “acquired” before the date on which title to that vehicle passes under state law.

First reference, Michigan (where you can't buy Teslas):
What does is mean for the title to have passed under state law? In Michigan (Section 257.233), it means

(9) Upon the delivery of a motor vehicle and the transfer, sale, or assignment of the title or interest in a motor vehicle by a person, including a dealer, the effective date of the transfer of title or interest in the vehicle is the date of signature on either the application for title or the assignment of the certificate of title by the purchaser, transferee, or assignee.

Second reference,California Code, Vehicle Code - VEH § 5901

(d) A sale is deemed completed and consummated when the purchaser of the vehicle has paid the purchase price, or, in lieu thereof, has signed a purchase contract or security agreement, and has taken physical possession or delivery of the vehicle.

Someone also referenced Texas with the same approach.

So, regardless of the time it took for the State to execute the paperwork, the car was, and will be recorded as, the purchaser's as of the date of purchase.

Practically:
If the Title were not considered transferred until the State filled the paperwork, then the dealer/ seller would be liable for the vehicle until that point. It would also make claiming the tax credit during the phase out nigh impossible logistically. It would also mean OEM sales numbers are wrong since they count the delivery date.(it was sold, but not sold sold since the purchaser didn't own it yet).

 

[Dr. J]

One key element of the original law is the car is sold for tax credit purposes based on when the title is transferred to the owner or financial institution, not when the paperwork is signed and the car handed over to the owner. Most states have a 10 day window to file the title transfer after a sale....

No, that's probably not true. When a car is delivered, equitable title is transferred. Regardless of how long the paperwork takes.

 

[Dr. J]

But in any case the effective date for the credit is the date Tesla transfers the title.

No, it's the date of delivery and payment, when the equitable title transfers.

 

[Dr. J]

By state law I think most states consider the date you take ownership of the car the date you sign the paperwork, but for the purposes of the incentive credit, the IRS goes by the date the title paperwork was filed. we're dealing with two different government entities with two different sets of rules.

Still: no. See previous posts.