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Powerwall 2: Installation
- Thread starter JeffreyY
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- Powerwall Tesla Energy
Ulmo
Active Member
No. However, I believe I am one of the first the engineers contacted, and they might already know that I am pretty aware of the benefits and capabilities of such a system, so I am not sure that this would have been necessary in my case, and they may know that. I do not know what this means going forward for other customers. Obviously, the Tesla website has some decent amount of information on it, and it is a pretty basic thing, like Elon said in his introduction: "1. Solar. 2. Battery. 3. Use it at night. Yeah, that's it. It's pretty basic." On the web site, it explains some of the specs. I think the details will come out as people review the new installations, and if I had the total earmark for this available, I would have already signed and sent in the document for installation. As it is, I'm going to probably re-asses my particular goals, and reduce to that.
I cleaned up the quote to remove as much personal information as I thought prudent. Please be aware that my quote will be different from yours, because every installation is different, and the goals and facts of each installation are different. In my case, I informed them that I wanted backup power for the entire house and recharging my car as one use case, and load shifting for my solar panels to evening for household and maybe car charging as the other uses case, and I wanted to know options like that and less. They calculated my typical use, and gave me the proper configuration for what I asked for, for only my full backup and full load shift use case (not off-grid, obviously, to those of us that follow these things, since off-grid is nearly a half an order of magnitude more). Obviously, different goals would produce different outcomes, and I will contact them regarding that after researching my questions over the weekend.
During the phone conversation before I received the following email, I produced the following questions and answers:
I asked: Can I do load shifting from daytime solar into evening with the batteries listed in this quote? The verbal answer I received was:
The batteries would receive over the "air" (I think he meant Internet since the site survey person said it needs an Internet connection) updates in April, which is around when my batteries would be installed, and those updates would allow the batteries to load shift from day solar charging to evening use.
Here are excerpts from the proposal they emailed me:
MEET YOUR POWERWALL
Powerwall is a home battery that stores energy so you can use it day or night. Powerwall can provide backup power by itself or can easily integrate with solar to provide your home reliable, clean energy 24/7. With Powerwall, you gain energy security and continuous power even in the event of a grid outage.
We at Tesla are excited for you to join the energy revolution and enjoy a sustainable lifestyle. Please ind your Powerwall proposal below.
- Number of Powerwall(s): 4
- Whole Home Backup
- About 1 Day of Backup
Your benefits:
- Secure your home from a grid outage with seamless backup power
- Power through an extended outage by continually recharging with solar
- Monitor your Powerwall and home energy through the Tesla app
- Use more of your solar by storing the excess and using it at night
- Reduce your electricity bill, if your utility offers a time-of-use rate plan*
Powerwall Price Sheet
Tesla entity
Tesla, Inc. of 3500 Deer Creek Road, Palo Alto, CA, 94304 CA CSLB 888104
Powerwall Energy Storage System, Installation Services, and Contract Price
$22,000 4 x Powerwall
$700 1 x Backup Gateway
$150 Permitting fees
$1,100 Installation Services
$1,750 Possible Additional Charges: Main Panel Upgrade [I believe this is specific to my installation]
0 Possible Additional Charges: Hidden Wire Run [this form has this line item as 0 in my case I assume because they think I don't need this]
0 Possible Additional Charges: Trenching [this form has this line item as 0 in my case because I don't need this]
0 Possible Additional Charges: Concrete Pad [this form has this line item as 0 in my case because I don't need this]
$1,816 Taxes
$xx,xxxx Sub-total [I censored the personal details of subtotal and total -- calculate this for your installation]
$(1,000) Credit for Deposit Paid [I reserved 2 at $500 deposit each]
$xx,xxx Contract Price
You are entitled to a completely filled in copy of this Agreement, signed by both you and Tesla, before any work may be started.
Then, it appears Lyndon Rive signed my proposal. I don't know if it was him personally, or someone else who works for him.
Here are some excerpts that are interesting from proposed Terms:
2. Contract Price. Your Price Sheet shows the price of your System and its installation (“Contract Price”). The Contract Price is inclusive of all taxes.
3. Installation. We will contact you to organize an installation date for your System. We may install your System ourselves, or use an affiliate or subcontractor. You authorize us to submit permit and interconnection applications related to the installation of your System on your behalf.
4. Payment. By entering into this Agreement, you agree to pay the Contract Price after your System is installed.
8. Grid Services. Your System is capable of supporting the reliability of the electrical grid by providing services under programs offered by utilities or third parties. You grant us the right to access and use your System to provide these services. Before we do this, we will explain the terms of your participation in the relevant program and give you the opportunity to opt-out.
[#8 is AWESOME!!!!! I bolded it because I think it is the most enabling technology on the list in terms of global conversion to clean energy, and has fascinating economic questions that I doubt will ever be answered until the end of time and will continue to be a great marketplace.]
9. Limited Warranties. Your System is covered by the Tesla Powerwall Limited Warranty ( https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/powerwall/Powerwall_2_AC_Warranty_USA_1-1.pdf ). Your System will be installed in a competent and workmanlike manner, and we will re-install your System if you notify us of any failure to meet this installation warranty within four years (or any longer period required by law) from installation.
Approximate Completion Date: 30-90 days from the day you sign this agreement.
Extra Work and Change Orders. Extra Work and Change Orders become part of the contract once the order is prepared in writing and signed by the parties prior to commencement of any work covered by the new change order. You may not require a contractor to perform extra or change-order work without providing written authorization prior to the commencement of work covered by the new change order.
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Followup: The engineer called me again just now and we discussed our options. He reiterated that one must have solar to load shift to which I answered that I do, and that load shift software will be downloaded sometime in April. I discussed my lesser goals, and he agreed to rework the proposal for 2 PowerWalls and that he would get back to me early next week. I overheard the ambient background sound on his phone, and his office sounds pretty lively.
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Awesome! Thanks a ton for that. I think those are the first real-world numbers available for a powerwall install.
I've guestimate that my total will be around $18K for three powerwalls. It seems I was pretty close.
Two questions:
I've guestimate that my total will be around $18K for three powerwalls. It seems I was pretty close.
Two questions:
Any idea what that asterisk is for? Is it just a "if TOU plan is available from your utility" or is there some kind of limitation not advertised?
Your primary breaker panel or the service breaker panel outside?
Ulmo
Active Member
It is not answered in the document. However, after the phone conversation I had just now, I inferred that this might only be available in cases where Time Of Use plans would make this attractive. While following general anecdotes about rate plans around the industry, I've noticed this will have almost no applicability in almost all areas, at this time, in California, due to the particular way our rate plans are structured and the overall payback of the system (including inefficiencies and lifetime use of the product). I believe, but I may be wrong, that load shifting is only useful in the following conditions:
- Now, for solar panel and other customer producers of electricity
- In one possible future where utilities compensate or offset energy costs for us for load shifting our own electricity (could be rate plans and/or smart grid) -- could even be incorporated into next item
- In one possible future where utilities compensate or offset energy costs for us for load shifting others' electricity across the grid (grid services) -- could even be incorporated into prior item
- Some areas where the rate plans and/or utilities already do one or both of the prior two items
One thing I would be tempted to do, and have not done, is run the longevity, total cost, and EV rate plans into numbers, and also verify with the utility that this is an allowed use. But, I'm personally against moving night time use into evening use, since that forgoes storing solar output.
I should point out that some of solar output to the grid is credited in the PG&E EV plan at lower rates (such as most of weekends and weekday mornings), and some at higher rates (such as weekday afternoons, and the tail end of weekend afternoons); I believe that those are the time periods I would target for load shifting in my batteries.
If I doubled the size of my solar system, then it would make more sense to load shift even out of the higher credited periods. In that case of large solar system with EV and EV rate plan in PG&E areas, that seems like one of the best possible use cases for these batteries -- keeping most electricity off the PG&E grid to begin with, but the numbers would have to be worked up to see if that pencils out at all. That was the original 4 PowerWall proposal idea here, and what I would have gotten if I had everything lined up already for that.
Good question. I plan to ask this later. I did not want to take away from his time from explaining to other potential customers, since I believe this week is a huge rollout week and they need all the time they can muster. I know my questions are the type that would elicit long responses that are mostly to educate those who don't know a lot, and I wouldn't want to put him in a spot of generalizing to someone who would rather have technical details, and like I said earlier, this is an evolving market. We all know where it's headed, but none of us knows the color or shape of the paths to get there, so it's kind of --- fun, but with a healthy dose of newness. However, I await the information as it unfolds over the next weeks.
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I believe it's the $5600 per unit plus $1000 for the first unit then supposedly a reduced rate of like $200 per PW thereafter.
The folks I'm working with a very responsive but they are from Tesla corporate I think.
wang5150
Member
I got my call to review initial docs today after the site survey last week. I asked a few questions like the inclusion of backup gateway, option to isolate the Wall Connector circuit separate from the battery so I can charge the Tesla using the grid instead of battery, as well as using a separate installer.
So, the backup gateway allows you to control feeding the battery back to the grid as another user have said and this would be all configurable on your My Tesla page once the install is completed.
Once they're ready to do the install, I can discuss circuit isolation with the installer so the wall connector line can still draw from the grid instead of the battery.
And, separate installer would void any warranty that comes with the battery. But Tesla would work with your installer if you decide to go down this path. I only asked because some here were wondering about this option.
Overall, very responsive and versed on the technology. I'm excited for the next steps!
So, the backup gateway allows you to control feeding the battery back to the grid as another user have said and this would be all configurable on your My Tesla page once the install is completed.
Once they're ready to do the install, I can discuss circuit isolation with the installer so the wall connector line can still draw from the grid instead of the battery.
And, separate installer would void any warranty that comes with the battery. But Tesla would work with your installer if you decide to go down this path. I only asked because some here were wondering about this option.
Overall, very responsive and versed on the technology. I'm excited for the next steps!
May I ask which solar inverter you are (or will be) using? Tesla has told me their AC coupled powerwalls will somehow trick grid-tied inverters (that typically go down with the grid) into staying online during a grid outage to charge the batteries.
I think they're going to have to give in on this one in areas where SolarCity does not have a presence. I asked them the other day who would be doing my installation and was told they don't have anyone in my area yet.
wang5150
Member
I have SolarCity system installed and it came with Fronius IG Plus V inverters.
I will be installing 2 PowerWalls. They added the backup gateway ($700), Permit Fees ($150), installation ($900), and Taxes. Your cost estimate may vary depending on your specific install.
I'm lucky in that I have plenty of wall space right next to the existing inverters to fit the new PowerWalls so I'm sure that reduced the installation costs.
When I talked to Swell Energy he explained that their installation for the AC PowerWall will set up a critical loads panel inside the gateway/transfer switch and they would move the solar to that new panel. That way, when the grid is down, the solar can still charge the PowerWall. He said they like working with Enphase systems (which I have) but he didn't say why. Maybe they can talk to the Enphase gateway to know how much the solar is producing?
When the grid is up, it doesn't matter where your EV is connected because it's all connected together and synched to the grid. If the PowerWall is supposed to be providing power when you're charging, it will push out what it can and the grid will naturally supply the rest. However, if you want to charge your car when the grid is down, you will need a connection that is "inside" and not drawing more than the sum of the solar output and the battery inverter. Then again, Tesla probably knows how to change the waveform so the car will stop charging but it won't disturb most other appliances. In theory, they could also pass info through their cloud systems about how much current the car should be drawing in semi-real time.
Ah, that makes sense. I guess the Tesla gateway would have to prevent the batteries from being 100% depleted overnight. Otherwise the Enphase inverters and gateway would be deactivated (due to them thinking the grid is down) the next morning.
Tesla really needs to release a specs and features document for their backup gateway.
Sure, that's also a possibility, but there are cable length limitations that would prevent it from working in all situations.
avesraggiana
Member
avesraggiana
Member
The problem of my increased electricity consumption because of plugging in and charging my EV. At a rated 33 kWh per 100 miles, driving 2,000 miles a month, I expect to consume 660 kWh of electricity, doubling my current monthly household electricity consumption. I was looking at installing Powerwalls to partially offset that increase, but since my solar system design hasn’t been finalised yet, I’m now asking the solar company I’m working with (Sungevity) to look at increasing the number of solar panels to as much as practicable, given my suitable roof area.
First, you should size your solar for you total usage, including EV charging, corrected for TOU credits and net metering rules like NEM 2.0 Non-Bypassable Charges. What I'm trying to say here is that it is more cost effective to aim for close to zero net dollars per year than net zero kWh per year.
Second, PowerWall cannot offset or reduce your usage, it can only shift it to a different time period, while losing a little energy in the process. PowerWall is useful to either reduce the billable charges from the utility, or to keep running through utility power outages, or both.
Second, PowerWall cannot offset or reduce your usage, it can only shift it to a different time period, while losing a little energy in the process. PowerWall is useful to either reduce the billable charges from the utility, or to keep running through utility power outages, or both.
