Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

PowerWall and "The Missing Piece..." Event

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
I still think it's possible to assign sources to each unit of charge energy, and not allow "Supercharger" sourced energy into the home (actually, for accounting reasons, parity can be used a lot). It's just a simple accounting calculation.
I agree. Back when Shai Agassi was launching Better Place, he included the ability for the car to give back to the grid as being an important element in his concept. As you suggest, an accounting of power received from the grid, power given back to the grid and power used by the car could to be kept.

If the car was used for work commutes, it would learn how much power would be needed to get home and it could give up some surplus power to the grid while plugged in (to charge) at work - if there was a grid need. Similarly at home. It would know (or could be told) when it was next needed and to go where and it could charge when demand was low, in time for departure, to ensure desired range. Or provide power to the grid if needed.

All part of a smart grid. Other then the 'wear and tear' on the batteries from additional charge/discharge cycles, this could become a feature rather than a liability. In the Better Place concept, the company owned the batteries, so the cycles weren't really a concern for the car owner. I wouldn't assume that car to grid will never be offered... the day may come. It would certainly be a way to extend the massive storage E.M. was discussing, by leveraging capacity already in use.
 
If I'm going to spend $27k for nine 7kW linked together I'd rather just opt for the 100kW unit instead
The question is who is going to install as these various system configurations? How are you going to get all these Powerwall units to work/operate? What is the operating system? Are you the homeowner going to do this yourself?My point is you are going to have to hire an installer that will charge a retail price. That retail price is what you the home owner will pay. Now then, who is best value installer out there? This is the thought process that should happen today and down the road. Not economics of the Tesla "whole sale" price point for various configurations.Everything all circles back to the installer price point.
 
The question is who is going to install as these various system configurations? How are you going to get all these Powerwall units to work/operate? What is the operating system? Are you the homeowner going to do this yourself?My point is you are going to have to hire an installer that will charge a retail price. That retail price is what you the home owner will pay. Now then, who is best value installer out there? This is the thought process that should happen today and down the road. Not economics of the Tesla "whole sale" price point for various configurations.Everything all circles back to the installer price point.

I would get a permit and install them and have it certified by an approved technician. No way I'm paying someone else to screw a few wires in. Good thing I know what I'm doing. I should just go get an electrician license for the hell of it then not have to deal with someone to look at my wiring when I already know it's done right. I've seen too many shabby jobs my real electricians and wouldn't trust them doing it unless I'm standing over them directing them the whole time.
 
I would get a permit and install them and have it certified by an approved technician. No way I'm paying someone else to screw a few wires in. Good thing I know what I'm doing. I should just go get an electrician license for the hell of it then not have to deal with someone to look at my wiring when I already know it's done right. I've seen too many shabby jobs my real electricians and wouldn't trust them doing it unless I'm standing over them directing them the whole time.

how are you going to run this system? How is it going to discharge and charge when you want it to? Are you going to develop an operating system? What about if the set up breaks for some reason, non battery issue? Will the cost of getting permits and doing the install yourself outweigh the costs of using a professional Powerwall installer that offers energy management and guaranteed low kwh cost compared to the utiltiies or alternative energy storage products?

my point is, tesla is selling the battery, the rest is on the buyer which includes inverter, software, and install. At some point a third party will be involved... At least for 95% of the market, the broad average electricity consumer.
 
Obviously yes. Good thing I'm a software engineer too. When I'm contacted by tesla I'll find out more about the installation procedure and customization. If I need to write software to control it that'll be easy enough.

Thats fantastic. Maybe you should package that software and sell it to others going the same route you are. I bet it would lucrative if it ultimately saves more money for an owner.
 
I'm looking at it this way: I also have TOU and Net Metering, through San Diego Gas & Electric. During the summer peak electricity costs 3x super off peak. I have solar and two Teslas. We are only able to generate about 1/2 of our power needs and have maxed out our roof.

So, I would want to configure the Powerwall to minimize my peak usage this way:...........

All of this makes me wonder if the utilities will want to and/or can prevent the use of these with their grids somehow?

As far as I know the utilities have no jurisdiction over our electrical circuits inside our house. They do care about the equipment if it will be selling power to the grid.
 
Last edited:
That's what i was thinking as well. I have a 10.8kW solar system. My utility has time-of-use charging and net metering. As i generate solar power, that generation is first netted out against what i use on a time of use basis.

I'm looking at it this way: I also have TOU and Net Metering, through San Diego Gas & Electric. During the summer peak electricity costs 3x super off peak. I have solar and two Teslas. We are only able to generate about 1/2 of our power needs and have maxed out our roof.

So, I would want to configure the Powerwall to minimize my peak usage this way: During super off peak hours, store all the energy you can, including from the grid. During peak hours, put all of the solar output into the grid, and use the Powerwall for any electricity use possible. In theory, I could even arbitrage rates by sending Powerwall energy into the grid during peak hours, but I'm going to guess the utilities are going to get unhappy about that pretty quickly, and I'm not sure it's even allowed since the Net Metering is supposed to be for solar and not batteries. I wonder if they will come out with a rule saying that if you have one of these you can't use Net Metering anymore.

All of this makes me wonder if the utilities will want to and/or can prevent the use of these with their grids somehow?
 
I finally got to watch a recording of last night's event.

Wow.

I understand that many people here are impatient for details on the Powerwall's overall cost and economics, but Elon's presentation last night was about the big picture. At the end of the video I was more hopeful than ever.

For years many people have insisted that solar and wind weren't viable because of intermittency. The infinitely scalable 100 kWh Powerpack is proof that what people said was impossible, is possible.

Elon's presentation was just fine. Yes, he stutters, but that almost seemed like it was out of gleeful excitement. No, he's not Steve Jobs, but I feel that he is on Jobs' level, just with a different style. I don't think Jobs would have wanted Elon to copy him anyways.

While Wall Street obsesses over the economics of Powerwall, they are missing the impending forest of Powerpacks.
 
The grid storage version is revolutionary, especially if it's being sold at $250/kWh like the Wall Street Journal reports.
Lets assume 1 kW/h cost to produce $.03 during off peak hours and each kW/h of battery replaces killowatt hour that produced at peak plant cost of $0.07. For $250 we will get simplified payoff time of 25000c/4c=6250 days or over 17 years. Add ROI, maintenence. Payoff time at $250 is too high. This is why EOS Energy talking about $160 per kW/h. At 160 they are much more competitive.
 
I got curious about the current Solar PhotoVoltaic Cell electricity production in California, so I found this:

http://content.caiso.com/green/renewrpt/DailyRenewablesWatch.pdf
http://www.caiso.com/market/Pages/ReportsBulletins/DailyRenewablesWatch.aspx

This is off their main status page here:

http://www.caiso.com/outlook/SystemStatus.html

Just for April 30, 2015:

22GWh was steamed sewer (filtered sewer dumped into the earth where it heats up and shoots out as steam and generates electricity).
22GWh was wind.
48GWh was PV (solar cells).
18GWh was mirrors (4), water gravity small scale (4), biogas (4) and biomass (5) -- I think biogas+biomass were polluting, so that's 9GWh that was polluting.
This totals to "112GWh was Renewables".

Soap box: Their definition of Renewables excludes an additional ~30GWh or so of water gravity (large scale, like Hetch Hetchy). It would be closer to 40GWh if there was more water, I gleaned from 5 seconds of reading, scarce because of lower snowfall. So, there's the political: they consider ~30GWh of renewable water gravity (dams) as "non-renewable" and "bad" for us (Sierra Club wants to close Hetch Hetchy), but they consider 9GWh of biomass burning and biogas burning as "renewable" even though it is toxic. Sierra Club is one of the most anti-environmental organizations in existence; they hate nuclear power (even though it is very good for environment), they love illegal aliens (who are very bad for environment), they burn forests (which is very bad for environment), they support water policies that don't raise the price of water and keep overpumping the groundwater (which is horrible for the environment), and they vehemently oppose desalination plants (which would be great for the environment if they were built right). Sierra Club is the worst thing to happen to our environment in the last quarter century. Off soap box.

48GWh of PV created yesterday amounted to 7% of our total electrical grid use (676GWh) yesterday.

If you look at those graphs, you'll see the mismatched valleys and peaks that need to be shuffled around better. Tesla's battery packs are supposed to even those out so we could go, say, 100% PV solar cell + other nonpolluting renewables and not need any more of the other polluting sources of energy. We could even appease some of the wacko heads by moving away from good stuff they religiously hate, like nuclear power and dams. We could keep going and power all the transportation that is currently very polluting. And we could keep going even further and build enough desalination plants to water all our farms, forests, fisheries, rivers, estuaries, cities, suburbs, lawns, golf courses, pools, showers, jacuzzies, fountains and all the rest of our water desires, all powered by solar cells, if we want (even if it means we have to learn how to pre-filter the salt water through the ocean floor first to avoid sucking in wildlife). This means we can have our cake and eat it too -- as a prior poster said, Tesla is enabling us to appease both the bottom-line death-before-expenditure bastards and the "enviro"nut nazis at the same time, while meeting in the middle to do something we actually need. This is awesome! And for all my ballyhooing about how nutty the Sierra Club people and short sighted the bottom-liners are, they play an important role in tugging at us reasonable people in the middle to do sort of the right thing, and I think it will all come together because of (and in spite of) it all. And polite people could do the right thing without having to be impolite like I have been (sigh).

We have a long way to go, but just looking at what we've accomplished so far leads to a lot of optimism. I encourage everyone to go the right direction and not wait around for others to do it for us.
 
Last edited: