Prediction: Coal has fallen. Nuclear is next then Oil.

[ggies07]

They are horrible. And really not recyclable despite the markings. Biodegradable packaging is available, but it isn't used as much as it could be.

Plastic packaging is the great bulk of what we take to the landfill. Nearly everything else can be recycled or repurposed.

There is certainly a place for plastic for devices and permanent tools and equipment, etc. But it needs to be done safely.

Agreed. Did anyone read of PDKs a few years ago? Not sure where the process is now.

​

Closed-loop recycling of plastics enabled by dynamic covalent diketoenamine bonds

Here, we show that next-generation plastics—polymerized using dynamic covalent diketoenamine bonds—allow the recovery of monomers from common additives, even in mixed waste streams. Poly(diketoenamine)s ‘click’ together from a wide variety of triketones and aromatic or aliphatic amines, yielding only water as a by-product. Recovered monomers can be re-manufactured into the same polymer formulation, without loss of performance, as well as other polymer formulations with differentiated properties. The ease with which poly(diketoenamine)s can be manufactured, used, recycled and re-used—without losing value—points to new directions in designing sustainable polymers with minimal environmental impact.

And here is an article in Science talking about:

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abp8823

 

[mspohr]

KISS, but not any further.

This call to end plastic use has been brought up before, but without a viable alternative, will fall on deaf ears. It's like the early environmentalists call for the end of gasoline use and more walking/mass-transit. It just isn't a viable option for many. Plastics is what makes many things possible, primary of which is sterile medical supplies. Until the equivalent of a BEV gets developed, the call to end plastics is premature.

Edit: Note that the production of plastics can be done without adding CO2, so it's not interlinked with climate change.

Many localities are starting to ban single use plastics (i.e. primarily take out food containers). Most of these can be easily replaced with paper substitutes.
What did we ever possibly use for sterile medical supplies before plastics? (hint: metal, glass and paper wrapping)

 

[mspohr]

Oil Tankers Already Sailing Into The Sunset Of Peak Oil Demand - CleanTechnica

The number of new VLCCs to be delivered in 2024? Zero. The number to be delivered in 2025? One.

cleantechnica.com

The numbers are stunning. The ratio of crude tanker capacity on order to crude tanker capacity in service is now down to an all-time low of 2.7%, according to Clarksons Securities. “For very large crude carriers (VLCCs; tankers that carry 2 million barrels of crude), it’s a mere 1.7%. VLCCs are vital for transport of crude exports from the U.S. Gulf and the Middle East. There will be 910 VLCCs of all ages on the water by the end of this year. The number of new VLCCs to be delivered in 2024? Zero. The number to be delivered in 2025? One.e.

80% of fuel demand is for ground transportation, and that’s all going to electrify. That’s low-hanging fruit. As I published recently, India is at 83% heavy rail electrification with a target of 100% within years. China is at 72% and climbing. Europe is at 60% and climbing. China’s 600,000 electric buses and 500,000 electric trucks make it clear that all but niches of off-road will be electric. Pipelines will see dwindling crude, gas, and diesel loads, with bankruptcies and consolidation, done strategically and well in some jurisdictions, and badly with fuel shortages in others.

 

[Oil4AsphaultOnly]

Many localities are starting to ban single use plastics (i.e. primarily take out food containers). Most of these can be easily replaced with paper substitutes.
What did we ever possibly use for sterile medical supplies before plastics? (hint: metal, glass and paper wrapping)

Ha! Sterilizing the metal and glass was done with alcohol! None of that stuff came sterilized (or at least didn't stay that way for long)! Fastidiousness for cleanliness was a requirement for nurses back then. Paper gets wet and would not stay "clean" in such an environment. You'd need 3x the nursing staff to handle the same amount of patients, if you had to follow medical procedures of the past. Disposable plastics, as bad as they are for the environment, was a godsend for the medical field.

As for the banning of single use plastics, that's fine, but notice that it was simply replaced by more environmentally friendly disposables, most of which don't have the long-term storage durability that plastics had. The problem of living in a "disposable" society hasn't been solved, and most likely never will.

But aside from single-use plastics, has there been any viable alternatives for plastic's durability and low-cost? Metal has the unfortunate side-effect of being electrically AND thermally conductive. Wood isn't as strong when too thin, and glass isn't ductile. Modern electronics (phones and laptops being the biggest dependents) would simply not exist without plastics. Nor would Tesla's for that matter (thanks to PETA).

 

[Konicom04]

I don't see the heavy transportation and construction equipment being electrified any time soon. I personally believe that sector of economy will go hydrogen.
Its kind of sad, because i truly believe the current battery technology is at its infancy. Just like we missed the boat investing engineering resources into wind energy instead of nuclear, we're doing the same with such resources directed towards hydrogen.

 

[Oil4AsphaultOnly]

I don't see the heavy transportation and construction equipment being electrified any time soon. I personally believe that sector of economy will go hydrogen.
Its kind of sad, because i truly believe the current battery technology is at its infancy. Just like we missed the boat investing engineering resources into wind energy instead of nuclear, we're doing the same with batteries investing in hydrogen.

Hydrogen will never live up to its proponent's expectations.

Contruction equipment is already being electrified, as evidenced by the new equipment that the industry veterans having been working on. Truck transport is being proven out by the Tesla Semi, and as battery density improves, so will the scope of viability for battery-based equipment.

 

[Konicom04]

Im surprised there isn't a study

Hydrogen will never live up to its proponent's expectations.

I agree with that - hydrogen sounds like a rebranded oil, at least in the required infrastructure sense.
I just don't understand the Toyota's approach. It seems they "should know better"

Contruction equipment is already being electrified, as evidenced by the new equipment that the industry veterans having been working on. Truck transport is being proven out by the Tesla Semi, and as battery density improves, so will the scope of viability for battery-based equipment.

Sure, but at current tech its practically useless.

 

[Konicom04]

a bit off the subject, but I always wonder - have there been studies to illustrate a comparison between the amount of kWh used to produce an EV battery vs an ICE engine of similar "range"
To tie the loose ends - lets say an M3 battery vs BMW 3 series 6 cylinder engine since the two seem to be always competing for bragging rights

 

[Oil4AsphaultOnly]

a bit off the subject, but I always wonder - have there been studies to illustrate a comparison between the amount of kWh used to produce an EV battery vs an ICE engine of similar "range"
To tie the loose ends - lets say an M3 battery vs BMW 3 series 6 cylinder engine since the two seem to be always competing for bragging rights

Don't need to, since "range" is an ICE talking point. As long as the charge capacity (or charging cycle) is sufficient for the "work", then it's viable. That's why even though the model 3 SR can't compete with a Camry/Accord on range, people are trading them in for the Tesla.

 

[mspohr]

Ha! Sterilizing the metal and glass was done with alcohol! None of that stuff came sterilized (or at least didn't stay that way for long)! Fastidiousness for cleanliness was a requirement for nurses back then. Paper gets wet and would not stay "clean" in such an environment. You'd need 3x the nursing staff to handle the same amount of patients, if you had to follow medical procedures of the past. Disposable plastics, as bad as they are for the environment, was a godsend for the medical field.

You haven't worked in medical field. Autoclave wrapped in paper.

 

[dhrivnak]

That's one thing that really bothers me about "take out". We end up with a pile of plastic containers. That's one reason I don't often order take out.
Does it make sense to package a meal which will be consumed within hours in packaging which has a lifetime of hundreds of years?

I was impressed with our last trip to Eastern Canada. No plastic, spoons were wooden, even takeout was paper, or cardboard as were grocery.

 

[Oil4AsphaultOnly]

You haven't worked in medical field. Autoclave wrapped in paper.

Isn't autoclave paper made with polyethylene and polypropylene?

 

[Konicom04]

Don't need to, since "range" is an ICE talking point. As long as the charge capacity (or charging cycle) is sufficient for the "work", then it's viable. That's why even though the model 3 SR can't compete with a Camry/Accord on range, people are trading them in for the Tesla.

I suppose my use of the word "range" was't on point.
I wanted to get an angle for the time I run into another arguments with ICE(age) people, who constantly yell that electrics aren't truly green

 

[Oil4AsphaultOnly]

I suppose my use of the word "range" was't on point.
I wanted to get an angle for the time I run into another arguments with ICE(age) people, who constantly yell that electrics aren't truly green

If you're concerned about the "greenness" of an EV versus an ICE. There's been plenty of studies. The first one (by UCLA) compared a Nissan Leaf against a Sentra, which was somewhat "fair" (due to use case) - concluding that BEV's eventually overcome their initial manufacturing CO2 deficit. The next one was an ICE hit-piece that pitted a model S charged on the German grid powered by mostly lignite coal (and batteries manufactured in China using 80% coal, even though the model S batteries came from Japan!) versus a Prius hybrid (without accounting for the CO2 cost of refining the gasoline!). That study concluded that BEV's would never recoup their initial CO2 footprint. This study was debunked by a follow-up stuby done by the Union of Concerned Scientists, which is what we pretty much rely on now.

The conclusion was that:
- yes, battery packs take more energy to build initially, so more CO2 is produced in the making of a Model 3 versus a Accord/Camry/3-series.
- but BEV's save so much CO2 during their operation that the deficit is surpassed in less than 80k miles. The greener the grid, the sooner the payback.

For something like a Fremont-built Model 3 LR, with its battery pack made in Nevada (using electricity from renewables) and no need to ship it across the ocean, there's actually no CO2 deficit to pay off!

 

[mspohr]

Isn't autoclave paper made with polyethylene and polypropylene?

Biodegradable Cellulose Fiber (i.e. paper)

 

[Oil4AsphaultOnly]

Biodegradable Cellulose Fiber (i.e. paper)

Texwipe makes their "Cellulose-based" autoclave paper with polymer reinforcement (I read that as plastic reinforced), and claims their synthetic paper (made with polyolefins - aka polyethylene & polypropylene) perform significantly better. They do NOT make a purely cellulose-based autoclave paper. In fact, I couldn't find ANY purely cellulose-based autoclave paper.

So we're back to square one. Without plastics, many in the medical field will have a hard time dealing with their current workload.

 

[Konicom04]

If you're concerned about the "greenness" of an EV versus an ICE. There's been plenty of studies. The first one (by UCLA) compared a Nissan Leaf against a Sentra, which was somewhat "fair" (due to use case) - concluding that BEV's eventually overcome their initial manufacturing CO2 deficit. The next one was an ICE hit-piece that pitted a model S charged on the German grid powered by mostly lignite coal (and batteries manufactured in China using 80% coal, even though the model S batteries came from Japan!) versus a Prius hybrid (without accounting for the CO2 cost of refining the gasoline!). That study concluded that BEV's would never recoup their initial CO2 footprint. This study was debunked by a follow-up stuby done by the Union of Concerned Scientists, which is what we pretty much rely on now.

The conclusion was that:
- yes, battery packs take more energy to build initially, so more CO2 is produced in the making of a Model 3 versus a Accord/Camry/3-series.
- but BEV's save so much CO2 during their operation that the deficit is surpassed in less than 80k miles. The greener the grid, the sooner the payback.

For something like a Fremont-built Model 3 LR, with its battery pack made in Nevada (using electricity from renewables) and no need to ship it across the ocean, there's actually no CO2 deficit to pay off!

Thank you !
I am actually surprised with the findings you referenced. With my mechanical background ( altho I have no knowledge on processes and complexity of battery manufacturing ) it is hard to believe that manufacturing ICE vehicles is less energy demanding than manufacturing similar EV's.
The amount of parts that compile an ICE engine, the processes required to manufacture them - starting with engineering / melting / rolling / forging of often exotic metals, then using complex processes to machine / manufacture individual parts, through labor intensive process of quality control, transportation and warehousing.
All that sounds like a lot of energy, and labor cost.
Im assuming the battery manufacturing ( again - not an expert at all on this element ) - while very mineral dense - is far more automated and simpler in terms of "parts - per - unit".
Certainly easier to transport and warehouse ( heavier, but not as bulky as an ICE engine)

 

[mspohr]

Italy-sized chunk of Gulf of Mexico to be auctioned off by the US for oil drilling

An enormous swathe of the Gulf of Mexico, spanning an area the size of Italy, will be auctioned off for oil and gas drilling on Wednesday morning, in the latest blow to Joe Biden’s increasingly frayed reputation on dealing with the climate crisis.Last summer, Biden signed the Inflation Reduction Act (or IRA), a landmark bill that the president lauded as the “biggest step forward on climate ever”. The sweeping legislation has billions of dollars in support for renewable energy projects and electric car subsidies, but it also included stipulations that large areas of the Gulf of Mexico and Alaska be made available for fossil fuel drilling in order to appease Joe Manchin, a pro-coal Democratic senator and key swing vote.

 

[mspohr]

Texwipe makes their "Cellulose-based" autoclave paper with polymer reinforcement (I read that as plastic reinforced), and claims their synthetic paper (made with polyolefins - aka polyethylene & polypropylene) perform significantly better. They do NOT make a purely cellulose-based autoclave paper. In fact, I couldn't find ANY purely cellulose-based autoclave paper.

So we're back to square one. Without plastics, many in the medical field will have a hard time dealing with their current workload.

Like most things, people add plastic where it's not necessary.
Here's paper
Fine Science Tools DISPOSABLE STERILIZATION WRAPS

Also, cotton cloth is commonly used

 

[Oil4AsphaultOnly]

Thank you !
I am actually surprised with the findings you referenced. With my mechanical background ( altho I have no knowledge on processes and complexity of battery manufacturing ) it is hard to believe that manufacturing ICE vehicles is less energy demanding than manufacturing similar EV's.
The amount of parts that compile an ICE engine, the processes required to manufacture them - starting with engineering / melting / rolling / forging of often exotic metals, then using complex processes to machine / manufacture individual parts, through labor intensive process of quality control, transportation and warehousing.
All that sounds like a lot of energy, and labor cost.
Im assuming the battery manufacturing ( again - not an expert at all on this element ) - while very mineral dense - is far more automated and simpler in terms of "parts - per - unit".
Certainly easier to transport and warehouse ( heavier, but not as bulky as an ICE engine)

You have to remember that BEV's are heavier than ICE, which means there's literally more material in them. The UCLA study compared a 3900lb Nissan Leaf with a 2800lb Nissan Sentra. That's 900lbs of additional material. And most of that weight isn't the highly recycled (aka less energy intensive) aluminium nor steel. Even the model 3 (despite all the optimizations and aluminium) is still a few hundred pounds heavier than a comparable sports sedan.

As more batteries are made at their place-of-use, then their carbon footprint will be lowered. And as battery density improves, then so will the carbon footprint. Once there are enough batteries in circulation that recycled batteries are viable, then it should seal the case that BEVs take less CO2 to build.