Not China cheering but more of pointing out that our excuses are just excuses as our plan, set by fossil fuel companies, is not to transition.
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Prediction: Coal has fallen. Nuclear is next then Oil.
- Thread starter nwdiver
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- Energy Environment Policy
Not China cheering but more of pointing out that our excuses are just excuses as our plan, set by fossil fuel companies, is not to transition.
dhrivnak
Active Member
I do not count 800,000 a trivial number. From my quick research that is 8X the forced labor in China.
- Employment
According to a 2022 American Civil Liberties Union report, about 800,000 people work in state and federal adult prisons, with most jobs related to prison maintenance, laundry, or kitchen work. Some prisoners also work for states and municipalities, such as cleaning up after disasters or picking up trash. - Pay
A 2017 Prison Policy Initiative study found that incarcerated workers earn between 86 cents and $3.45 per day for common prison jobs, and in some states, they don't get paid at all. - Compulsory work
Prison labor is mandatory, with little oversight or regulation, and incarcerated workers have few rights and protections. If they refuse to work, they may face disciplinary action, such as solitary confinement, loss of visitation privileges, or denial of sentence reductions. - Industry
Penal labor is a multi-billion-dollar industry that provides at least $9 billion in services and over $2 billion in goods to the prison system annually. More than 4,100 companies profit from prison labor, but many corporations that use prison labor may not be on that list due to a lack of transparency.
Is this the math people are using to determine nuclear that costs $300M/GW/yr and needs a CF of ~90% can somehow be integrated into a grid increasingly dominated by incredibly cheap solar, wind and storage?
I don't disagree that we all suck. It's the above statement that I'm trying to point out to you. "The science is settled, the technology is there", but our government (and the half of the population that voted for them) lacks the political will to bring solar panel manufacturing inshore. And thus we have no choice but to rely on China to make them, regardless of how you feel about their use of coal and prison labor. THAT is the reality.
mspohr
Well-Known Member
Capitalists Alarmed as Renewables Keep Making Electricity Temporarily Free
The supply of renewable energy is soaring across Europe and parts of the US, causing prices to go negative. Investors are becoming wary.
futurism.com
The supply of renewable energy is soaring across Europe, to the point where the cost of electricity is dropping to zero — and even, in some rare instances, going negative. On one hand, that's a boon for plenty of consumers, not to mention the environment. But businesses are now starting to worry that these upside-down economics could cause the demand for bigger and better renewable power projects to taper off, Bloomberg reports
California tells people to avoid gas stations
Poor air quality was expected throughout the day on Thursday.
www.newsweek.com
Hybrids cause smUg! LOL
Interesting. I have worked in a prison and nothing was mandatory and they were all paid. Obviously, any other system is horrible.
There is some difference between breaking a law and being a minority I would say. And some difference between working in the kitchen and making textiles for export. That being said, I can't do anything to stop forced labor in the US. I can try to avoid buying products made in China (particularly those reportedly made with forced labor).
I think we can all agree that forced labor is bad.
My comment about ideology is that we can't ignore it. Raffy often says "focus on the science" but that doesn't help - ideology is the problem. The science is so crystal clear and really has been for an obscenely long time.
There is some difference between breaking a law and being a minority I would say. And some difference between working in the kitchen and making textiles for export. That being said, I can't do anything to stop forced labor in the US. I can try to avoid buying products made in China (particularly those reportedly made with forced labor).
I think we can all agree that forced labor is bad.
My comment about ideology is that we can't ignore it. Raffy often says "focus on the science" but that doesn't help - ideology is the problem. The science is so crystal clear and really has been for an obscenely long time.
Raffy.Roma
Rome (Italy)
Thank you for having mentioned me. But you also agree that ideology is the problem.
If we want to work out the Climate Change issue Science has to prevail not only on ideology but also on personal interests IMO.
Biden Administration Tightens Mileage Standards to Buoy E.V.s
The new rule requires automakers to achieve an average of 65 miles per gallon across all models by 2031.https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/07/...-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb
You keep repeating this, but no one ever claimed to doubt this. This reliance on "the science" is in itself a form of ideology. You are advocating for "us" to do something about climate change on a forum dedicated to the community of people who've already taken the first steps towards reducing their personal emissions. Per capita, the US is still the worst polluters, and a significant number of "us" (Americans who don't own an EV) are not budging AND are NOT on this forum.
Your message isn't being heard, because you're in the choir. We've already taken steps to reduce our personl pollution. We could reduce it even further by walking and eating food we've grown ourselves, but that's like a geo metro owner switching to a prius to save the planet, while his next door neighbor buys a hummer. Make gasoline more expensive, raise fuel taxes, stop trying to secure our fossil fuel supply through securing the middle East, and most of all, stop worrying about what the other countries are doing and focus on cleaning up our own shores instead. To that end, spread your advocacy on newsweek.com (you won't believe the amount of ignorance still going on out there), newyorktimes.com, wallstreetjournal, etc.
This thread was originally about celebrating the slow, yet inevitable conversion to renewables. Somehow it became a china-bashing thread, when they're currently the fastest path we have towards transitioning away from fossil fuels. Saying "we need to move away from fossil fuels and do it without China's help" is itself an ideology.
Raffy.Roma
Rome (Italy)
Sorry but I disagree. The Climate Change issue is a Scientific issue and has to be handled without any political purpose.
Also former Special Presidential Envoy for Climate John Kerry always pointed out the need to face the Climate Crisis has a purely Scientific issue.
Ha! You too don't get it.
Who on this forum is arguing that climate change is NOT a problem? Because you insist on beating that drum without any recognition on whom you're beating it against, in essence, you are demonstrating dogma - which is a sure sign of ideology.
It's like telling everyone that the earth is round and then insisting that it's IMPORTANT!
Actually, I'm now wondering if I've just been trolled?!?!
Raffy.Roma
Rome (Italy)
Sorry but I disagree again. I am beating on that drum because it's SO difficult to face the Climate Change issue as a purely scientific problem. I don't care about ideology. I am only interested in people of good will helping to work out the Climate Change issue without any discrimination about their political color.
But I think that we are saying more or less same thing. It’s only that we are having a misunderstanding.
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I'll agree with this and sometimes there might be a language barrier that is slight but important.
Other times, even English-as-first-language people misunderstand each other. I am sure that "Oil" and me have 99% convergence on things. But I can't understand "reliance on 'the science' is in itself a form of ideology". That just doesn't compute. Science is facts and ideology is opinion. I guess some ideology likes to ignore facts and I am not sure what we are supposed to call that.
Now - I also totally acknowledge that interpretation of data is effected by ideology and no one is free of this (maybe AI?).
Back to celebrating the demise of oil.... This thread started in 2016. Global demand is up by 10% since then (admittedly that is predicted - maybe just 7%). Eventually it will fall but how long to get back to the "great" days of 2016? Optimistic me would say another 8 years. I would say the original thread title might be a mistake. But maybe I am impatient....
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Raffy.Roma
Rome (Italy)
mspohr
Well-Known Member
Far-right fossil fuel company allies pressure US supreme court to shield firms in unprecedented campaign
Groups linked to billionaire Leonard Leo, who seems to have ties to Chevron, are pressing the court to intervene in lawsuits that could cost billions
www.theguardian.com
Far-right fossil fuel allies have launched a stunning and unprecedented campaign pressuring the supreme court to shield fossil fuel companies from litigation that could cost them billions of dollars.
If granted, the request could catalyze the dismissal of the wave of climate accountability lawsuits against big oil – a major win for the defendants seeking to limit their liability for the climate crisis.
I have never, ever seen this kind of overt political campaign to influence the court like this,” said Patrick Parenteau, professor and senior climate policy fellow at Vermont Law School. In recent weeks, conservatives have published opinion pieces in Bloomberg, the Hill, the Wall Street Journal and the National Review calling on the court to grant the petition
Dr. J
Active Member
That is not accurate. Ideology is "a system of ideas and ideals, especially one which forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy." Ideology can include, besides opinion, values. Some ideologies also include facts.
Meanwhile science is an outlook, a process of discovery, and facts--the root of the word "science" is knowledge. If you are familiar with the history of science, you know that a part of yesterday's "science" is seen today as hokum, balderdash, and fantasy. (As determined by the process of science, increasing our knowledge.) We don't know what part of today's science will be seen in the future as nonsense, but it'll be some. The watchwords of scientific inquiry are humility, doubt and skepticism.
It's likely that our understanding of climate change is incomplete, but doubtful that climate science is way off the mark. Time will tell.
Raffy.Roma
Rome (Italy)
Sorry but IMO we are going into vane details. Ideology = opinion + values + facts is always opinion because scientific arguments are not opinionable.
Truth is that we have serious difficulties to get rid of ideology to work out the Climate Change issue.
I mean let's work out the Climate Change issue which is a matter of Global Security and is purely a scientific issue.
Ideology is another thing.
tmoz
S85D, Y LR, ex Prius PiP
I think we are going to get transportation pollution under control in the next decade or two, but the rise of electricity hungry data centers might throw a monkey wrench into plans to make our grids greener. I also think geothermal may be the dark horse to save the day. Not sure if everyone knows what is meant by a dark horse, but it means something that is so far away from the lead that nobody notices them until they put on a burst of speed and win the race to everyone's surprise.
dhrivnak
Active Member
Sorry but I disagree as ideology is ALWAYS part of the issue. We as humans have many problems confronting us. We have several significant wars, poverty, unwanted immigration, large deficit spending, high inflation, hunger/starvation, climate change,.......... So what is the priority? Which problem(s) do we tackle first? How much should we spend on each issue? Those answers fall into ideology.
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