Price of Supercharging in the future?

[roblab]

If you are able to put in solar, do it, and your home charging goes to zero dollars after a few years. You quit paying electric bills and save thousands of dollars a year.

OR, you can complain about Tesla charging for supercharging, and that you can't charge for free anymore. Oh, yeah, you can't charge at home and you travel more than 150 miles a day one way. Well, good excuse for a couple people out there.

Any time something is free it gets abused.

 

[SSonnentag]

Another thought I've had is that road deterioration is directly proportional to the weight of a vehicle traveling on the roadway. Its probably more like the weight of the vehicle divided by the contact patch area, but that's getting a bit into the weeds. So a tiny eco car (Mitsubishi Mirage at ~2,000 lb) should pay less road tax than a bulky SUV (Lexus LX at ~6,000 lb). The Mirage can probably get the full rated range out of a set of tires too, while the heavy SUV will be lucky to get 1/3 of the rated miles per set of tires. So my tire tax proposal works out fairly using the weight benchmark as well.

 

[Glamisduner]

Another thought I've had is that road deterioration is directly proportional to the weight of a vehicle traveling on the roadway. Its probably more like the weight of the vehicle divided by the contact patch area, but that's getting a bit into the weeds. So a tiny eco car (Mitsubishi Mirage at ~2,000 lb) should pay less road tax than a bulky SUV (Lexus LX at ~6,000 lb). The Mirage can probably get the full rated range out of a set of tires too, while the heavy SUV will be lucky to get 1/3 of the rated miles per set of tires. So my tire tax proposal works out fairly using the weight benchmark as well.

Well we already pay registrations based on vehicle weight here. Gas tax is just above and beyond those taxes, and deals more with the amount of driving. But in CA we are taxed for everything anyways. Diesel is $4+ a gallon here right now.

 

[insaneoctane]

I'd suggest adding the "surcharge" to your insurance since they know your mileage and vehicle type...... But, where I live lot of people don't pay for insurance ....

 

[brkaus]

$0.70 per kWh? That’s nuts pretty much anywhere in the continental US. How much of a premium is that over your local residential electricity prices?

Doesn't surprise me if anyone wants to recoup the hardware and installation costs. High cost, minimal use. I'm not sure how this will all work out in the future.

 

[tecis]

At least the gas tax does that. Someone driving 5,000 miles/year should not pay the same road taxes as someone who drives 50,000 miles/year.

correct. In other words, it's more useful just to have an ICE if you drive few miles. Driving few miles is bad for the engine, bad for pollution, bad for everything. But hey, the gov. got it's share because of muh roads...

 

[Jedi2155]

My work sometimes takes me to sites over 100 miles from my house. They used to have free chargers on site but after I ordered my 3 they now charge around $.70 per kwh so supercharging is cheaper for me. Wish I had bought a performance early on. When home yes home charging is great.

Are you sure its not $0.70 per HOUR?

 

[cwerdna]

Holy crap. Does your office just not want anyone to charge, period? I could understand a small margin, maybe even double or triple the cost per kWh to account for any demand charges they might face, depending on how many chargers they have. But SEVEN TIMES the residential rate is just nuts. Unless their demand charges are just nuts or they’re on some strange plan which has them crossing several tiers so they’re paying crazy rates per kWh, they’re just gouging their own employees.

$0.70 per kWh? That’s nuts pretty much anywhere in the continental US. How much of a premium is that over your local residential electricity prices?

70 cents per kWh in insane but this location is even worse at $1 per kWh!
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FWIW, demand charges for DC fast charging (or even a whole bunch of L2's going at the same time) can make charging quite expensive. I pointed to a report at Rocky Mountain Institute and Evgo fleet and tariff analysis (relates to DC FCing) - My Nissan Leaf Forum (unfortunately, 1 PDF URL is 404 now) which is quite extensive and complicated. I haven't that time nor interest to study it thoroughly as I don't have to personally worry about commercial power plans.

Doesn't surprise me if anyone wants to recoup the hardware and installation costs. High cost, minimal use.

Could be. I don't know what the OP's work installed but if was ChargePoint, their commercial hardware and service plans aren't cheap.

Take a look at page 11 of https://www.menlopark.org/Archive/ViewFile/Item/4630, for instance. Normally, for their CT-4000 series stations, you need one gateway station for a given area. The gateway station has a cellular radio in it while the other non-gateway stations nearby connect to the gateway via a short range wireless LAN. CT-4021 stations I believe are dual J1772 handle.

Or, look at page 18 of https://www.bart.gov/sites/default/files/docs/FYE 2016 EV Charging Demonstration Program - Fully Combined Application_Final.pdf.

We have a whole bunch of Chargepoint CT-4000 series stations at my work but I don't work in facilities.

 

[Jedi2155]

That's outrageously expensive. I doubt all chargepoint installations are this expensive but if it is...its crazy.

 

[cwerdna]

That's outrageously expensive. I doubt all chargepoint installations are this expensive but if it is...its crazy.

I can't speak to the other costs but I noticed in the latter URL, there's clause on page 20 about pricing being confidential. Whoops. (This might explain I hadn't found any pricing of commercial station hardware on Chargepoint's site.)

I did in passing conversation w/one of our facilities folks installing more Tesla wall connectors asked "Chargepoint CT-4000 stations are over $6000 each, right?" Answer was yes. (Was implied it was a dual handle unit, since that's all we have and it wouldn't make sense to install a single handle EVSE.)

Pulling Back the Veil on EV Charging Station Costs has some typical costs from 2014.

Page 7 of https://www.cityofberkeley.info/Cle...tem_31k_Fees_for_Use_of_Electric_Vehicle.aspx has expense projections (to Chargepoint, for energy, demand charges, etc.)

Page 12 of http://pompanobeachfl.gov/assets/docs/db/meetings/cra/board/2.16.16/items/3.pdf has some costs, as does 19 but page 19 doesn't include installation, electrical work, etc.

Again, this is all for just level 2, 30 amps max output per J1772 handle.

 

[brkaus]

Plus the monthly fees for ChargePoint.

It would be nice if Tesla could use the brains and communication within the car to enable/bill WC/HPWC if the station owner desired.

It would need an authenticated handshake to authorize the unit. And of course with physical access it would be possible to hack.

 

[adaptabl]

Free work EV chargers will not continue. I have yet to see an employer install a free gas pump in their parking lot. Once EV adoption increases the economics do not make sense.

Now with incentives and low numbers of EV's it works. Once there are 10% of the cars that are EV's what do you do? All a few EV charging stations will do is create conflict.

 

[tecis]

Again, this is all for just level 2, 30 amps max output per J1772 handle.

In other words, noone told them they are on par output wise with a 14-30 NEMA. which costs probably 30 USD at home depot + 300 USD for installation.

 

[tecis]

I have yet to see an employer install a free gas pump in their parking lot. Once EV adoption increases the economics do not make sense.

If the employer was clever they'd just install 14-50s. 9.6 KWh/parking spot/hour at best. That's 0.96 USD (at 10 US-Cents all in costs)/hour if used for charging.

Most EVs don't even have a 40 AMP on board charger.

How much will the average employee charge? I'd say 30 KwH at most. We are talking < 3 USD/employee/day, aka less than a gallon of fuel.

probably not even worth the hassle to install a metrics system.

Simple solution:

Do you want EV parking with charging at the workplace: Yes/No

Yes: 50 USD/months

 

[Chickenlittle]

Another thought I've had is that road deterioration is directly proportional to the weight of a vehicle traveling on the roadway. Its probably more like the weight of the vehicle divided by the contact patch area, but that's getting a bit into the weeds. So a tiny eco car (Mitsubishi Mirage at ~2,000 lb) should pay less road tax than a bulky SUV (Lexus LX at ~6,000 lb). The Mirage can probably get the full rated range out of a set of tires too, while the heavy SUV will be lucky to get 1/3 of the rated miles per set of tires. So my tire tax proposal works out fairly using the weight benchmark as well.

I doubt weight of car will figure into tax rate. Industry where weight matters most- airlines. Why is my ticket same price as someone twice my weight. Fuel larger average size of seats (hence fewer passengers) all effected. The public outrage would be too hot for airline. People love suv crossover pickup trucks, would not tolerate

 

[Need]

That's outrageously expensive. I doubt all chargepoint installations are this expensive but if it is...its crazy.

The chargepoints around here are usually around $2 to $3 per hour. $0.70 per kWh would be pretty crazy expansive. I think $0.55/kWh was the most expansive lv 2 charger I have seen and it was not a chargepoint.. I think it was Blink.

 

[brkaus]

If the employer was clever they'd just install 14-50s. 9.6 KWh/parking spot/hour at best. That's 0.96 USD (at 10 US-Cents all in costs)/hour if used for charging.

Most EVs don't even have a 40 AMP on board charger.

How much will the average employee charge? I'd say 30 KwH at most. We are talking < 3 USD/employee/day, aka less than a gallon of fuel.

probably not even worth the hassle to install a metrics system.

Simple solution:

Do you want EV parking with charging at the workplace: Yes/No

Yes: 50 USD/months

Exactly. Pick the appropriate price. If it is over-subscribed, make it 4 hour max. $50 is probably a bit high, but will depend on the area (commute length, etc)

Airports should do similar. Install 5-20 and/or possibly something 240v (6-20?) in a row of spots. Reserve charging spot online, print at home, and put on your dashboard. It would be in addition to the parking fee. No permit on the dash, then tow it away. Something like $15/visit + $2 per day to pull a number out of my...

No need for fancy communicating $6k boxes that will never recoup cost. Can replace a lot of warn outlets for that price.

 

[SigNC]

I'm curious how supercharging looks in few years when there are clearly more teslas on the road but a much lower percentage with "free" supercharging. Just about every S and X on the road today can SC for free. That won't be the case in 5 years.

 

[Vines]

Free work EV chargers will not continue. I have yet to see an employer install a free gas pump in their parking lot. Once EV adoption increases the economics do not make sense.

Now with incentives and low numbers of EV's it works. Once there are 10% of the cars that are EV's what do you do? All a few EV charging stations will do is create conflict.

Speak for yourself, at my work the boss has made it clear that he will install as many EV as necessary. It may not make sense in your area, but that doesn't mean your experience is typical, and likely neither is mine.

Think of it this way: here in my area, people routinely spend $3-500 per month in gas for an ICE to commute. If my work allows me to charge an EV here it offsets 100% of my transportation costs. However the actual cost in electricity for my commute to my work is way less than it would be for me, something like $50-100 per month due to industrial power pricing compared with my already overloaded and shared home service, at tiered pricing.

To me it feels like extra compensation, and I pocket what used to be my monthly gas costs. Additionally my boss and company continue to be leaders in green energy. Overall electricity costs less to deliver, and is cleaner to use, not to mention the built in efficency of an EV compared to an ICE.

Its nothing like installing gas pumps at the workplace, because fossil fuels are not only more expensive, but also less efficient. We would no more install gas pumps than we would install rotary phones.

 

[adaptabl]

Speak for yourself, at my work the boss has made it clear that he will install as many EV as necessary. It may not make sense in your area, but that doesn't mean your experience is typical, and likely neither is mine.

Think of it this way: here in my area, people routinely spend $3-500 per month in gas for an ICE to commute. If my work allows me to charge an EV here it offsets 100% of my transportation costs. However the actual cost in electricity for my commute to my work is way less than it would be for me, something like $50-100 per month due to industrial power pricing compared with my already overloaded and shared home service, at tiered pricing.

To me it feels like extra compensation, and I pocket what used to be my monthly gas costs. Additionally my boss and company continue to be leaders in green energy. Overall electricity costs less to deliver, and is cleaner to use, not to mention the built in efficency of an EV compared to an ICE.

Its nothing like installing gas pumps at the workplace, because fossil fuels are not only more expensive, but also less efficient. We would no more install gas pumps than we would install rotary phones.

That makes no electrical sense. One of the big advantages of EV's is they can charge at night when the demand for power is lower. By having them charge during the day in peak times there will be need for more and more power plants to supply this peak demand. If the entire growing EV market did this, soon there would be a major need for many new power plants to be constructed.

Actually all those EV's should be a source of power for the grid in peak times. Give a big discount for night charging and use a percentage of this power when needed by the rid and the EV's are parked at work. That's a win-win case and an positive environmental impact.

How do you want to power these new plants? Coal, Nuclear power, Natural gas? Currently a large part of California's power is from carbon fuel burning. reducing that demand could allow some of these to close.