Project Better Place

[vfx]

Green Car Congress: PJM/Better Place study finds unmanaged charging of 1M electric cars could add $750M in annual wholesale energy costs; need for CNO-managed smart charging

 

[JRP3]

Tom Saxton's comments say it all.

 

[doug]

Project Better Place taking heat on its home turf Autoblog Green

According to Rabinowitz, the economics of Better Place don't work out for Israeli consumers or for Israeli tax payers. Instead, he calls the company's plans a "gimmick" whose only real value as a company is what it generates from the "monopoly it received from the state on building and operating charging stations."

 

[TEG]

Better Place Announces Business Plan, Signs Israeli Lease Deal | The Truth About Cars

...While I’m not going to bore you with all the figures and upward-pointing graphs, Better Place’s presentation does contain some interesting figures. For example – for the first time ever – the company reveals the cost of its swappable battery pack: 9,900 euros – which are about $14,000 – and a declared range of 290,000 kilometers, which translates to a little over 180,000 miles before the battery is sent to a world full of good...

(That may be a 22kWh pack.)

 

[doug]

The Case For Better Place: Shai Agassi Addresses The APEC Transport/Energy Ministerial Conference | The Truth About Cars

 

[dpeilow]

Ask Better Places Shai Agassi a question

 

[TEG]

Better place really seems to be emerging as the "battery swap company" (or "switching" as they call it.)

Electric Cars ecomagination

What happens to the used battery at the switch station?
The used battery is removed from below by a robot arm and an automated storage system places it in a rack. We then push a lot of cold air into the battery to cool it and recharge it at a faster rate. In about 45 minutes it is fully recharged and ready to go. Our system network meanwhile monitors the performance and the lifecycle of each battery, and even matches its performance profile to the driver who can best use it. The system ensures that there is always a charged battery for every customer who drives in.

What will the driver experience during a typical travel scenario that involves both battery recharging and switching?
Every morning, every day, your battery is full, because you recharged at home overnight and you recharged at work. With that you can go about 100 miles without recharging. Then, if you’re going on a random, long-distance trip, say, from Manhattan to Montauk for the weekend (about 115 miles), you’ll have to switch the battery once along the way. That means you’ll need to stop at a switch station for about three and a half minutes.

It seems over time, Better Place talks more and more about the "switching" and everyone else talks less and less about "swapping" (and more on QuickCharge/FastCharge.)

 

[Mycroft]

WSJ: Leasing Firms Shy From Electric-Car Rollout: Resale Values Become Concern in Better Place's Israel Launch

Accounting for more than half of the about 216,000 new cars sold sales in Israel by leasing to corporations, rental agencies are balking because of uncertainty regarding the cars' resale value. Mr. Bar said that he fears vehicles with switchable batteries might lose as much as 70% of their original value in four years instead of the typical 40% loss by gasoline-powered vehicles over the same period.

Better Place has service stations that a driver can pull into and an attendant will remove the heavy battery pack and install a fully charged new one. It also has recharging spots—a plug and meter—at the stations and elsewhere for a slow recharge. Drivers subscribe to the service.

However, some Israelis have expressed disappointment that the car's price —122,900 shekels, or about $33,000, after a tax break—doesn't reflect a discount compared with gasoline cars similar to the Renault Fluence ZE, the electric vehicle that Better Place sells, that have been modified to accept its swappable battery packs. Just as important, critics also complain that Better Place's electricity subscription plans—starting at 1,090 shekels a month—reflect only a 20% discount to gasoline prices for similar mileage.

Critics say that electric-car owners should be able to fuel their cars from their own home rather than Better Place's grid. "It looks backward," said Ori Carmon, a marketing executive at an Israeli technology company who is preparing to buy a new car. "It's like a closed code. Not an open code. People don't like that."

Mr. Agassi dismisses the criticism as "rumors" propagated by auto makers whose businesses are threatened by his car. Required power purchases are necessary to meet safety standards, he says.

This guy is fricking delusional! To "meet safety standards"?! Wow! So instead of charging the car in your own garage at 10% of the cost of gasoline, you're required to swap the battery or charge at Better Place's charging stations and pay 80% of the cost of gas?!?! Where is that going to work?!

This reminds me of DIVX. What a stinker that was!

 

[EVNow]

This guy is fricking delusional! To "meet safety standards"?! Wow! So instead of charging the car in your own garage at 10% of the cost of gasoline, you're required to swap the battery or charge at Better Place's charging stations and pay 80% of the cost of gas?!?! Where is that going to work?!

Why would someone not be able to charge at home ?

I wonder if the comment is about J-1772 instead of just a normal household plug ?

 

[stopcrazypp]

WSJ: Leasing Firms Shy From Electric-Car Rollout: Resale Values Become Concern in Better Place's Israel Launch

Here's the link to read the whole article for people interested (the other link doesn't give the full text because of WSJ's practice of only allowing the full article text when linked from google/google news):
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=leasing firms shy from electric-car rollout%3A resale values become concern in better place's israel launch&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052970204190704577026162679236898.html&ei=ncLBTp37Ja3PiAKMmLGJDA&usg=AFQjCNFE6uTxlRpgvzI-uMQUw1erHYtA3Q&cad=rja

Why would someone not be able to charge at home ?

I wonder if the comment is about J-1772 instead of just a normal household plug ?

Even J1772 cars in the US comes with a cable as standard to plug your car into a normal level 1 household socket (the level 2 charging station costs extra).

 

[JRP3]

I think you have to buy into their "charge minutes" plan, so even if you charge at home you still have to pay their higher priced monthly plan. One of the benefits of an EV, charging cheaply at home, is denied with this scheme.

 

[EVNow]

I think you have to buy into their "charge minutes" plan, so even if you charge at home you still have to pay their higher priced monthly plan. One of the benefits of an EV, charging cheaply at home, is denied with this scheme.

The way I understand it - you are really paying for the miles (essentially paying for the battery - with charging thrown in).

 

[Mycroft]

Another complete and utter fool with a lowercase 'f'. This guy believes that the Volt and Leaf are going to fail and that Better Place is the company to bet on when it comes to EVs. He says that because battery technology is going to get better so fast, the resale value of EVs will be zilch. You have to listen to the audio, but basically he equates BP's model with cell phones. You get a $400 cell phone "free" and in return you sign up for a two year contract. So with BP, you get a $16,000 battery in return for some kind of contract.

I'm not about to buy his book, but I wonder if he addresses the serious issues with this comparison. With the $400 phone, you are not getting it free. You're paying for it, in full, in your phone bill. So is he saying that you're going to pay for the $16,000 battery in full over the life of the contract? And still not own the battery? What about the electronics in the car? It's not just the battery that's better in a few years.

There's so much else wrong with his premise, I don't have the energy to type it.

The Motley Fool, Feb 25, 2012: "The 1 Company to Bet On in Electric Cars"

I thought it was telling that Chris Hill was shocked that half the price of the Leaf is the battery.

 

[JRP3]

It annoyed me enough that I had to join MF and comment.

 

[TEG]

Does Better Place Have A Monopoly On Electric Cars In Israel?

 

[TEG]

The Proposed Model(s) For A Modern EV Changing Station In SF at SocketSite

 

[Robert.Boston]

Electric car network gets first test in Israel

ROSH HAAYIN, Israel (AP) - Israeli entrepreneur Shai Agassi has begun rolling out the world's first nationwide electric car network. Now, will the drivers come?
After more than $400 million in outlays and months behind schedule, dozens of electric cars have hit the road in Israel, the test site Agassi chose for his Better Place venture. Four stations where the cars can get a new dose of juice when their batteries run out are operating, and the plan is to ramp that number up within months.
...

 

[mpt]

Image what a $400M Fast DC Charging network would look like? At least 10,000 units or at least one every 5 miles on the US highway network - How convenient would that be?

 

[brianoflondon]

I don't know if people are still following this thread, but if you are and have any specific question, feel free to fire away. I've been a Better Place customer since driving off the lot on May 21st. I've driven 2200 EV miles since then switching batteries 13 times, sometimes for fun and to demonstrate it to interested passengers. I've only actually needed 6 battery switches (and one of those came about because I didn't plug the car in properly the night before). You might have read my reports on Green Car Reports or on my blog.

 

[brianoflondon]

I've just joined the forums here, mostly to look at the chat about the Model S but I'm a Better Place customer in Israel. If anyone is still watching this thread and has any questions feel free to fire away.

Brian of London (OF London, not in London.... I moved to Israel 3 years ago)