Project Better Place

[stopcrazypp]

CBS: Project Better Place

[youtube]mXfqGL3C2uI[/youtube]

 

[TEG]

Did it say "AC propulsion" on that LCD panel?
Doesn't Nissan make their own EV drivetrain?

 

[stopcrazypp]

Did it say "AC propulsion" on that LCD panel?
Doesn't Nissan make their own EV drivetrain?

It does say that, but I think the car it was on was the Renault not the Nissan.

 

[TEG]

Is it official? They didn't say much about it, but I saw this reported about the Model S:
2012 Tesla Model S revealed! (updated)

...the Model S’ battery can also be swapped out in just five minutes, making it compatible with Shai Agassi’s Better Place initiative...

 

[DDB]

Is it official? They didn't say much about it, but I saw this reported about the Model S:
2012 Tesla Model S revealed! (updated)

Good catch TEG. You would think that would be something worth mentioning yesterday...would you not? If it's true, that's a bump to both platforms.

 

[vfx]

Elon did say this in his Model S introduction speech. Though it sounded like, Change the battery out faster that changing a gas tank".

Kinda weird but there were a lot of people talking around me...

 

[SByer]

Marginalize your compliment

If Tesla isn't going into battery swapping themselves, it's in their best interest to stay battery-swapping-station agnostic, if possible. Foster the competition. Your ICE car can fuel from any brand station, your BEV should be able to swap at any swap station.

Yes, there's the little minor detail of standards and things, but if the Tesla design is reasonable, first mover has a lot of power to set the standard.

 

[TEG]

The article I quoted said (or implied?) that it would be compatible. Is that wishful thinking from the reporter? I think there is a pattern of "leading" comments being made that allow reporters to jump to conclusions, sometimes wrong. I wish they would try harder to be "matter of fact", not "suggestive".

 

[TEG]

This article is much less certain:
"Tesla Model S Unveiled: A Great Concept, but Now the Wait Begins" Green Car Advisor

...The flat battery pack can be designed into the car to be easily and quickly removed and swapped for a fully charged pack when it is depleted.

Musk said this doesn't mean that it will be designed that way, or that Tesla is going to evangelize for a national battery swap standard, but it does mean that if everything came together and battery swapping instead of plug-in recharging became the thing to do, the Tesla S would be able to do it...

So is it an advertised, standardized feature, or just a future wishlist item? Annoying these vague details reported different ways.

 

[doug]

Shai Agassi's bold plan for electric cars | Video on TED.com

 

[graham]

From Doug's link:

...and in the San Francisco Bay Area not only do you have the highest concentration of Priuses, but you also have the perfect Range Extender: It's called "The Other Car"

:biggrin:

 

[doug]

The Green Issue - Batteries Not Included - NYTimes.com

 

[TEG]

The Green Issue - Batteries Not Included - NYTimes.com

...But Agassi realized he needed one more breakthrough: some way to rapidly charge a vehicle. No drivers, he knew, will tolerate a two-hour wait to recharge when they’re on a 500-mile haul. Then one day, he and an automotive engineer were chewing over an impractical method for quickly replenishing batteries. The engineer wondered aloud: Wouldn’t the fastest way to charge an electric car be to simply replace the battery?
It was, Agassi says, his “aha” moment. ...

I keep reading stories suggesting that this was some sort of new, breakthrough idea.

But I have read about battery swap for years and years before this.

For instance, see this from year 2000.

Admittedly they are running with and pushing an idea that hadn't previously gained traction though.

Will Better Place swap station compatibility be a pre-requisite for an EV to be accepted in the market place in 2020? I gather Tesla is preparing to get on board if they think this works out, but also isn't exactly embracing PBP as "THE answer" just yet.

 

[vfx]

New York, Boston and Paris all had taxi fleets with swapable batteries in 1911.

Back then, no robots, no hydraulics and big heavy lead batteries.


Nothing is new.

 

[efusco]

NY Times "Better Place" Robot Story

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/19/magazine/19car-t.html

The New York Times
Printer Friendly Format Sponsored By

April 19, 2009
The Green Issue
Batteries Not Included
By CLIVE THOMPSON

Shai Agassi stood in a warehouse on the outskirts of Tel Aviv one afternoon last month and watched his battery-swapping robot go to work. He was conducting a demonstration of the curious machine that is central to his two-year-old clean-energy company, which is called Better Place. Agassi’s grand plan is to kick-start the global adoption of electric cars by minimizing one of the biggest frustrations with the technology: the need for slow and frequent recharges. The robot is the key to his solution. Unlike most electric-car technologies, which generally require you to plug your car into a power source and recharge an onboard battery for hours, the Better Place robot is designed to reach under the chassis of an electric car, pluck its battery out and replace it with a new one, much the same way you’d put new batteries in a child’s toy.
...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/19/magazine/19car-t.html?pagewanted=all

 

[TEG]

For-profit seeks to build E-car 'charge spots'

...
Better Place spokeswoman Julie Mullins said plans for Bay Area stations are currently in the planning and permitting phase, with construction to begin around 2012, she said. Charge spots would be managed directly by the company, with no plans for local franchises.

Drivers would pay for access to the charge spots on a “subscription” based off of miles driven, comparing it to purchasing a cellular phone and an attached payment plan, Mullins said. Battery exchanges would be for trips farther than the estimated maximum range of 100 miles.

Better Place does not manufacture cars itself. The Renault-Nissan Alliance is developing an electric-powered five-door sedan that will be compatible with Better Place’s infrastructure, Mullins said. She added that other existing electric models such as the Chevrolet Volt and the Tesla Roadster would be able to use the charge spots...

 

[Palpatine]

This entire business model for Project Better Place is going to implode on them.

If the average EV can do 100+ miles of range, and starts each day with a full battery via home charging, then how often do you really think the driver will need to stop at a "PBP" charging station for a fast charge or battery swap?

Since the average American drives 29 miles per day, I predict that the need for all of these PBP stations is extremely low. They will rarely ever be used. As a result, the will likely never make financial sense.

It sounds good to people who have never driven an electric vehicle. Those people are trained to think of this like gas stations. You stop and refuel somewhere once per week.

But that is not the reality of owning an EV. When charging at home each night and starting each day with a full battery and 100+ miles of range, you would almost never need to recharge anywhere except at home. And what are the odds of having a PBP location right where you need it, when you need it? The PBP stations would have to be as common as a gas station is today. Do you understand how expensive all of that land and infrastructure will be?

I am going to call it now. Project Better Place is not going to be successful with this current business model. It doesn't make sense to build thousands of these battery swap facilities when they will so rarely be utilized.

 

[Tdave]

Interstate service/food stops. That's the only place I'd need a quick charge -- a few times per year if that. And as range increases with technology advances, that need fades.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I am going to call it now. Project Better Place is not going to be successful with this current business model. It doesn't make sense to build thousands of these battery swap facilities when they will so rarely be utilized.

I think their business model is a little more complicated than that. Essentially they want to be like a cell phone company, they charge for the miles. They subsidize the car & get whatever slow charge, fast charge, battery swap infrastructure ready; in return, they charge you a fee for a tiered amount of miles much like cell phone companies charge for minutes. That means even for the charge point at home, you don't pay for the electricity, they do. Not too sure how that works, but probably even the charge point at home is owned by them.

I'm not sure if it's a viable business model since they'll need to stock up with batteries for those swap stations and that won't be cheap, but the appeal to the customer is they can hide the battery cost in the subscription fee. From previous talks Agassi doesn't anticipate having to build too many swap stations, he figure most people won't need them too often. Instead he's planning to build charge points every place where people leave their cars the most: in parking spaces at home, businesses, work.

 

[Kevin Harney]

What is the benefit of me installing one of them at home ?!?!?!?!!? I have plugs already .....