Quality ? For tesla MS owners (past Toyota/Lexus owners)

[ChadS]

Two out of three of our last gas cars were Toyotas, a Prius for my wife (which we converted to a PHEV and my son eventually bought) and a Scion xA for our kids to drive. (The third of our gas cars was my Honda Insight). Our first EV was also a Toyota, a 2003 RAV4-EV.

Our Teslas (now 7 and 4 years old; and we have a new one on the way) have been reasonably comparable in terms of reliability*, and FAR superior on every other measure. While the RAV4-EV was great, I now have absolutely no interest in Toyotas until they start producing comparable BEVs.


*Our very early 2012 Model S did go in to the service center about three times in its first year, but the only reliability issue was the door handles, a known problem with the first couple thousand cars. Everything else was basically a free upgrade to make the car better: better defrosters, a quieter pano seal, a quieter HVAC unit, a more protected battery plate, etc. Everything worked, they just improved the car. Sure it would have been nice to have had those things done before the car shipped, but there was absolutely no cost or even inconvenience as they picked up our car and dropped off a comparable loaner for us to use while they improved our car. In any event, the new Model S do not have these issues. Though the early Model X might...

 

[CHG-ON]

Not a Toyota owner. Honda for me.

My MS is rock solid, every day. I had a few minor issues in the first six months. Nothing serious. Since then...the Rock of Gibraltar. And Tesla's service is beyond outstanding.

 

[twonius]

There are still some issues with these cars, but not every Toyota is perfect either.

My car developed a tapping noise coming from the pano roof on the drive back from the factory (appointment at the SC in 3 weeks) . I found a quite a few complaints about this on Camrys as well. Also a bit of rattle from the center right vent on fan settings above 7 or 8.

I don't think it's the equal of an LS430 for build quality (but almost nothing is). As long as these things get fixed I'm still very satisfied if a bit disappointed in QC in Fremont.

Even the big Lexus has its issues. My Dad's needs a new side power mirror ($800) and passenger power door lock ($800 also).

On the other hand if I'd bitten the bullet and bought a Lexus for reliability reasons I'd be pretty ticked at every failure.

 

[ChadS]

Good point - if you are buying for all the great Tesla qualities and you get them, a few little bugs won't bother you. But if you give up all the good Tesla stuff to get "Toyota reliability" and then don't get it - well, that would be pretty frustrating.

About ten years ago our best friends (who considered themselves "Toyota people" because of the reliability) bought a loaded Camry and a Lexus LX460 or something like that. Their Camry was worse than any car I've ever had, and the LX460 was far worse than that - it always seemed to have something broken. Though they like to hold cars very long term, both cars are now gone and they no longer own any Toyotas.

Most cars from most makes are pretty reliable. But a few from any make are going to have problems.

 

[twonius]

Yeah I test drove an RX that rattled much worse from somewhere deep in the dash. Apparently a common fault.

 

[privater]

I'm a Camry hybrid owner for 5 years, very solid car and I love it at that time, only mild 60000 miles on it.
However, I don't like the Toyota Service at all: expensive, pushing sales and directly ask customer to give them 5 star rating annoys me.
I never been offered a loaner car because of recall or warranty issue.
So I never look back when I switched to Model S two month ago. A better car and better service.

 

[pedriscoll]

I have owned 9 Toyota's over the past 35 years; Corolla, multiple Camry's, Solara, Prius, Highlander, Camry Hybrid and Avalon Hybrid (my wife still drives and loves this one) I have loved every Toyota, but they lost me when they put their money on Hydrogen fuel cells instead of BEV. I have had my 85D for 15 months and 24,000 miles, and have absolutely enjoyed every one of those miles. No problems at all. Now when I drive my wife's Avalon, a very nice car by the way, it seems like a step back by 50 years. We have a Model 3 on order for her, unless she opts for an X before then.

 

[TMobe]

Thank you all for the real world honest feedback. This is what I needed to hear from current and ex Toyota owners. We currently own 2 corollas, a 4Runner and a sequoia. All have been incredible vehicles to own. The sequoia is on the chopping block, and will be traded in for the 75D. It's my wife's car, 14-16mpg! We are looking forward to having a EV.

Again thank you all for the real world ownership comparison to Toyota. It puts my mind at ease.
Love this forum!!

I had both a Toyota 4Runner Limited and a Lexus GS with every option available. Both fantastic vehicles! Both needed help here and there. That many options bound to break something. Sold both and bought the Model S. Just the same the Model S has had small issues but just like Lexus service, Telsa is amazing. All covered. I've never been stuck anywhere. I'm very happy and if possible Tesla will be the only brand I buy going forward. Go for it! Buy that MS. You will not regret it

 

[Sir Guacamolaf]

My wife and I are Toyota owners. We have become very loyal to the brand because of their high quality products and reliably. I have researched extensively here on this forum and also online. We are ready to take the plunge and order a 75D. My question for you past Toyota owners is how has your Tesla been holding up. WhAt is your opinion of ownership referring specifically to quality, non routine maintainance issues. We really want to buy the car and are past the thinking about it stage. I will probably be placing our order next week. Some of the research I have done has generated concerns about drive unit, driveline issues etc..but I question if these are just a few issues some folks are having and that many may not be having any issues at all?

I am a car enthusiast and understand the traditional market very well, when owners say things like Range Rover/ old jaguar quality. That scares me a bit. Could be just a few rare circumstances with some upset owners or it could be a bigger deal than that.

Any advice would put my mind at ease.
Thanks all

Sorry to be the lone voice of dissent, but you are not going to find Toyota/Honda like reliability in Teslas.
I've always owned Hondas as my primary car(s), and a fun non-practical car on the side.

My car is about a year old, and I haven't had any issues, thankfully. But I can tell that the build quality is nowhere close.
- The paint is soft, the quality of the paint is not as good
- The materials feel cheap compared to my Acura that was 1/2 the cost.
- The computer software seems flaky, just an hour ago as I was driving, the center screen rebooted on it's own, on the freeway, as autopilot was engaged. Autopilot disengaged without any audible notification, how i knew something was weird is that my phone was connected over bluetooth and playing a podcast .. which suddenly stopped. I glance down and .. wtf! 65mph, in traffic, autopilot shuts off, car is still moving, no warning, no notification.
- I do hear some creaks etc. They don't bother me, but my 8 year old Acura didn't have them
- The rubber seals are more exposed, I feel they won't hold up over the years.
- etc.

Now are the newer (2014+) better than the older. Absolutely!
But a true representation would be .. 2013 and before were about as reliable as an alfa romeo/fiat.
The newer ones are better than your Ford and Chevy, but really, you can't match Honda/Acura, and especially Toyota/Lexus.

If I had to quantify, total gut feel,
- Lexus - 100
- Toyota - 95
- Acura - 95
- Honda - 93
- Tesla Model S new - 80
- Merc/BMW - 55
- Tesla Model X new - 20
- Tesla Model S old - 35
- Ferrari/Aston Martin - 15
- Alfa Romeo - 25
- Fiat - 35
- Ford - 75

.. you get the idea. The above is totally unscientific, gut feel, personal opinion, go ahead flame me.

PS: And the raves you hear about service - yeah service is great, but in some ways its not a lot better than the Acura dealer. If I had to compare,
- Both had coffee, free wifi, lobby
- Tesla always gives me a loaner. Acura dealer was always out of loaners.
- I had to visit the damn Acura dealer for oil changes, something I hated doing. With Tesla I go once a year for the annual maint. I'm lucky that I live closeby so they would even get the car from where I live.
- Scheduling with Tesla is harder though.
- And I am more worried about "out of warranty" with Tesla than any other manufacturer. .. this is a long explanation why .. happy to go into it if I haven't completely bored you already!

 

[SCDrJ]

New MS 90D (refresh) owner here:

Love my car, but in 3,000 miles has needed a number of creaks and rattles squashed, repainted bumper for unexplainable splotches from factory, and a steering rack replaced to name a few.

The SC staff worked very hard to make me happy and my Tesla grin is back! Don't regret my purchase but it's been a rough first few months.

Had a number of Toyotas which have been bulletproof. Not looking back from my MS but make sure you pay attention and get the issues fixed early!

 

[bmah]

Dear No ICE,

I drove a 1994 Corolla for 7 years and later a 2005 Prius for 10 years. The Prius was replaced with a Tesla Model S 85D (built in April 2015). (My wife has driven a succession of BMW 3 series, a 330i, a 335d, and now a 330e.)

My Toyota products were great. The Corolla was the most reliable car I'd ever driven (my parents bought GM cars in the 70s and 80s, 'nuff said). The Prius was almost perfect...the only major issue in ten years was a water pump failure.

I'm pretty happy with the Tesla hardware quality. My car is pretty recent, so I think Tesla has worked out most of the problems that beset the earlier builds. I had a few cosmetic issues which got addressed a few months in. The trunk latch actuator failed and was replaced under warranty. Those have been the only issues on my car (knock on wood), and I've been pretty satisfied with the quality of the hardware.

The software is a different story (maybe I'm sensitive to this because I write software for a living). Every few weeks I'll need to reboot the CID to clear up some gitch. There are a few quirks and bugs here and there in the infotainment system and the nav unit. I never had any of these problems in (say) my Prius, partially because the Prius was a lot more hard-wired and also because it wasn't trying to do as much. (The S and X have been described as "computers on wheels", well...think about all the bugs in computer software you use every day.) I want to state explicitly however that I have never been in a situation where I thought the car was unsafe.

The way I look at it, my S is way more advanced than my now-ex-Prius. Owning the S, there's a little bit of being on the bleeding edge of technology (even more than a Prius in 2005), and I think it helps enormously to have that expectation going into it. It's going to be cool, but expect to see a few quirks and glitches you wouldn't see on other cars. It helps to stay informed by reading and participating in forums like TMC, as you've been doing. (Note: I'm not a car guy and I have no idea why I have 500+ posts on a car forum.)

At the end of the day, I'm very happy with my S, no regrets at all. I hope you enjoy yours as well. Good luck!

Bruce.

Edit: I wonder what in this post rated a "Dislike", but whatever, I've got more important things in life to think about.

 

[Dwdnjck]

Toyota lost me at fuel cell.

 

[Canuck]

The forums are a place for the few to express their frustrations where the owners of the flawless ones are too busy driving to post.

Ha! There is a lot of truth to that statement. People with problems post them on forums whereas I've never come here and read a thread with the title: "No problems."

Sorry to be the lone voice of dissent, but you are not going to find Toyota/Honda like reliability in Teslas.

How can you make such a categorical statement? Certainly, he may. I've had mine for 2.5 years, over 52k km, and it's been incredibly reliable. I bet I can find a lot of people who bought a new Toyota around the same time I bought my Tesla (March 2014) and who have had their vehicles in the shop for reliability issues more than me. I had one door handle that didn't retract and Tesla fixed in my office parking lot while I worked so that doesn't count since it never went in the shop... Other than that, condensation in a rear taillight that is a known issue and was fixed during my yearly service. Nothing else for me. That's pretty reliable. I guess everyone who bought a Toyota in March of 2014 had zero issues which makes your statement correct...

 

[Footer]

Just had the 95,000 mile service on my 2007 Lexus RX400h. Other than oil changes, 12V battery, and tires, that has been the only service. It will be interesting to see how much longer the hybrid battery lasts.

The recharging port wouldn't always open on my Tesla. SC said it needed to be cleaned. Didn't help but the problem went away after a while. I think it was software related.

Occasionally the blue line on the Nav system stops updating properly and I have to reboot. Maybe 3 or 4 times a year.

Other than that, no problems. It's too early to tell if there are reliability issues with windows, door handles, things not associated with the EV aspect of the car. The battery and motor don't worry me. Can't say the same about the computer. Hoping that it can easily be swapped out to the latest and greatest version when the time comes.

 

[JPP]

We began a long relationship with Lexus in 1989. My wife took delivery of one of the first LS400s to his the US. She drove a succession of LS through an LS460 before getting her S70D in 2015. I took delivery of one of the first Lexus SC400s in the US in 1992, then drove a series of SCs and subsequently a GS450h, before getting my 2013 S85. Early on, the Lexus vehicles were of very high quality, and the customer service & support from the dealerships was unmatched. As years went by, the quality began to fade a bit--more failures and glitches, all handled under warranty. Still overall excellent vehicles. Interestingly, the Lexus dealership customer service began to taper off. Less personalized, more upsetting by the service department. Switched to Tesla and have not looked back. Yes, some glitches and fixes under warranty, but never left stranded, and always excellent customer service. I'm a geek, so the technical aspect impresses me--Lexus was getting left behind in the tech department. And even if we had never heard of Tesla, and still drove Lexus, I'm not sure I could stand buying/driving one with the new grille/front end appearance (I wonder what the designers and execs were thinking....sort of like the new rear end on the Prius).

Side note--after getting my S85 in 2013, went back to my local Lexus dealer to show the car to my long time Lexus service manager (great guy, excellent support). Gave him a ride--he told me that he had applied for a job at TM (...he could see the future). He became a TM service manager (working longer hours for lower pay--like a startup) and now has moved up the food chain to TM corporate. He was treated very badly by his former employer/Lexus dealership when he left.

 

[Azathoth]

We began a long relationship with Lexus in 1989. My wife took delivery of one of the first LS400s to his the US. She drove a succession of LS through an LS460 before getting her S70D in 2015. I took delivery of one of the first Lexus SC400s in the US in 1992, then drove a series of SCs and subsequently a GS450h, before getting my 2013 S85.
...
Side note--after getting my S85 in 2013, went back to my local Lexus dealer to show the car to my long time Lexus service manager (great guy, excellent support). Gave him a ride--he told me that he had applied for a job at TM (...he could see the future). He became a TM service manager (working longer hours for lower pay--like a startup) and now has moved up the food chain to TM corporate. He was treated very badly by his former employer/Lexus dealership when he left.

Holy cow, I could have written this exact same post! We got the first Lexus LS400 in our town in 1989 and then the first SC400 in 1992 (which I still have). Thought we'd only ever buy Lexus vehicles until I test drove a Tesla two months ago and got hooked - just took delivery of our S90D two weeks ago

If I were to compare initial quality and build, the Lexus is still a notch or two above Tesla, but for 'fun factor' there's no comparison (except maybe my beloved '92 SC400...) And I agree that the Lexus designers must have been high when they started with those new grills.

As to your side note, our Lexus service guy (who went independent years ago) confirmed that TM is indeed poaching Lexus service managers.

 

[LastGas]

I've had two Priuses. The cars have been great, but service has been a big problem. The repair work is ok, but after it gets done I start getting telemarketing calls to buy a new car. This happened with three Toyota dealerships where I tried to establish a long-term service relationship. I finally had to go to a 4th dealership 30 miles away and refuse to give them my phone number to get it to stop.

I can't wait for this Toyota to go on the truck for auction as soon as my Tesla arrives.

 

[Bimbels]

My car history is Honda, Toyota, Honda, Toyota, Lexus. My IS250 is 9 years old and is just now starting to cost me money in repairs. It's been a great car.

My husband got rid of his BMW for a Model S. Since then, I've put about 1.5k miles on my Lexus (over the past 14 months.) The Tesla blows it away. We are waiting for our Model 3 to replace the Lexus.

 

[somnambule]

Sorry to be the lone voice of dissent, but you are not going to find Toyota/Honda like reliability in Teslas.
I've always owned Hondas as my primary car(s), and a fun non-practical car on the side.

My car is about a year old, and I haven't had any issues, thankfully. But I can tell that the build quality is nowhere close.
- The paint is soft, the quality of the paint is not as good
- The materials feel cheap compared to my Acura that was 1/2 the cost.
- The computer software seems flaky, just an hour ago as I was driving, the center screen rebooted on it's own, on the freeway, as autopilot was engaged. Autopilot disengaged without any audible notification, how i knew something was weird is that my phone was connected over bluetooth and playing a podcast .. which suddenly stopped. I glance down and .. wtf! 65mph, in traffic, autopilot shuts off, car is still moving, no warning, no notification.
- I do hear some creaks etc. They don't bother me, but my 8 year old Acura didn't have them
- The rubber seals are more exposed, I feel they won't hold up over the years.
- etc.

Now are the newer (2014+) better than the older. Absolutely!
But a true representation would be .. 2013 and before were about as reliable as an alfa romeo/fiat.
The newer ones are better than your Ford and Chevy, but really, you can't match Honda/Acura, and especially Toyota/Lexus.

If I had to quantify, total gut feel,
- Lexus - 100
- Toyota - 95
- Acura - 95
- Honda - 93
- Tesla Model S new - 80
- Merc/BMW - 55
- Tesla Model X new - 20
- Tesla Model S old - 35
- Ferrari/Aston Martin - 15
- Alfa Romeo - 25
- Fiat - 35
- Ford - 75

.. you get the idea. The above is totally unscientific, gut feel, personal opinion, go ahead flame me.

PS: And the raves you hear about service - yeah service is great, but in some ways its not a lot better than the Acura dealer. If I had to compare,
- Both had coffee, free wifi, lobby
- Tesla always gives me a loaner. Acura dealer was always out of loaners.
- I had to visit the damn Acura dealer for oil changes, something I hated doing. With Tesla I go once a year for the annual maint. I'm lucky that I live closeby so they would even get the car from where I live.
- Scheduling with Tesla is harder though.
- And I am more worried about "out of warranty" with Tesla than any other manufacturer. .. this is a long explanation why .. happy to go into it if I haven't completely bored you already!

You come across as a Honda fanboi. If all you've owned are Hondas (plus MS), how could you possibly rate a bunch of different brands totally on "gut feel"? That's total bovine feces.

Over the past several years, I've owned vehicles by Honda, Nissan, GM (Cadillac) and BMW. All were bought new and I kept each one for at least 8 years. I'm also quite familiar with my parents' vehicles: several Toyotas (including a few JDM), and two Fords. I'm not blindly loyal to any one brand, and buy what best suits my needs at the time. I don't have enough data to make brand-wide comparisons. But here's how I would rate the specific vehicles I'm familiar with through personal experience (from best to worst).

1. My Cadillac (yeah, gut feel/opinion of fanbois are rarely rooted in reality). The Cadillac was also the most tech-heavy vehicle I owned (dynamic/magnetic suspension, panoramic roof, power-adjustable pedals etc.) prior to the MS.
2. A few of my parents' Toyotas were very close to the Cadillac in reliability (but they were not nearly as complicated as the Cadillac)
3. My Honda and the rest of my parent's Toyotas
4. Parent's Fords
<HUGE gap>
5. My Nissan
6. My BMW

I've only had my MS for a couple of months, so I won't try to include it in the above list. I've had two minor issues with the MS so far: a small paint issue (not in a highly visible spot; easily corrected by the OptiCoat guy), an occasional creak in the pano roof (CS visit scheduled).

I will say that creaks and noises are more noticeable in the MS as it's so much quieter at low speeds (and I'm very picky about noises). But the MS is so much better than everything else in so many ways that it's worth it even if the reliability is slightly worse than the best. It's like the inconvenience of having to make reservations at a good restaurant instead of the "convenience" of going to a crappy one where you can always walk in and get a table.

 

[DonL]

I've owned five Lexi, the last two being ls460s. I replaced my latest Lexus with a Model S in 2013. I had a couple of minor early issues but the service center fixed them immediately. I replaced my original Model S with a D when that was introduced and the build quality has been excellent. I've never regretted for one minute my decision to buy a Tesla. My car remains fun and a joy to drive even after 3-½ years of experience. My Lexi always turned into rides after the first month of enjoyment--not the Tesla! I enjoy it every time I get behind the wheel.