Radar Removed from Model S now too...

[deadwynter]

Tesla fully ditches radar as Model S and Model X transition to Tesla Vision

In May last year Tesla announced all new Model 3 and Model Y vehicles were no longer equipped with radar. Instead the automaker was moving to Tesla Vision, relying on the car’s multiple cameras to […]

driveteslacanada.ca

That sucks... From what I've heard, the vision only system is 10x worse for phantom braking and such. Why would you turn off the thing that makes your car see BETTER than humans in subpar conditions?

 

[zoomer0056]

Where did you hear that is was 10x worse?

 

[deadwynter]

Where did you hear that is was 10x worse?

I have a couple colleagues/friends who have been with Tesla for a while, and have newer 3's and Y's. Said that AP seems to perform noticeably worse with the new vision only system. I obviously didn't calculate the 10x part.

 

[WilliamG]

Where did you hear that is was 10x worse?

I heard it was 11.2x worse, but that might be an exaggeration if it turns out it's only 10x worse.

 

[DayTrippin]

I had a Y that I received just after they removed the radar from. It was FAR worse than any of the demo 3/Y's I drove with radar. I drove on the same roads, similar weather, same times of day, etc. I didn't have a single phantom braking even in all the hours of test driving I did. I had several phantom braking events after my AP finally finished calibrating and it went downhill from there.

While it got better over time, I'd say it still is way behind the cars I test drove with radar.

 

[ucmndd]

Why would you turn off the thing that makes your car see BETTER than humans in subpar conditions?

Cost savings, hubris, and being able to admit that radar was a dead end without also having to admit that every one of your competitors that went the LIDAR route are probably going to be in a better place long term.

 

[DayTrippin]

Cost savings, hubris, and being able to admit that radar was a dead end without also having to admit that every one of your competitors that went the LIDAR route are probably going to be in a better place long term.

I think what sent them on this path (beside saving money) was likely a shortage of radar for the 3 and Y. So the just said eff it. We'll cut the radar now and spin it like it is a plus. The stupid rubes won't know the difference as I am the Techno King (said Elon). It is the one thing I had buyer's remorse about with respect to my radarless Y almost every day.

If my S is as bad as my Y was most of the time, I'll sell it and go with another brand while I can get out without taking a bath on it. I bought the S to take longer trips in so TACC and AP are far more important to me now.

 

[deadwynter]

I think what sent them on this path (beside saving money) was likely a shortage of radar for the 3 and Y. So the just said eff it. We'll cut the radar now and spin it like it is a plus. The stupid rubes won't know the difference as I am the Techno King (said Elon). It is the one thing I had buyer's remorse about with respect to my radarless Y almost every day.

If my S is as bad as my Y was most of the time, I'll sell it and go with another brand while I can get out without taking a bath on it. I bought the S to take longer trips in so TACC and AP are far more important to me now.

We’ll see how this plays out. Big reason I bought was for autopilot as well.

 

[dannycamps]

From what I've heard, the vision only system is 10x worse for phantom braking and such.

It's no worse with vision only but I am not sure if it's much better. I question how effective the radar has been with recent software updates as Tesla moved further away from it.

 

[DayTrippin]

It's no worse with vision only but I am not sure if it's much better. I question how effective the radar has been with recent software updates as Tesla moved further away from it.

And that is my concern too. What I understand though is they can't remove if for other countries. Not 100% certain if that is true but I saw it from several different sources. So that doesn't mean they might keep it but have it inactive or still have to keep it operational in their code stack (though maybe on a country specific basis).

Want to see how this plays out. I don't want to dump the S but definitely willing to do it. We have 3 coming which I have no doubt will be bad. It will mostly be our city car and my wife never uses cruise anyway so not a major problem going in. At least this time I know how sh!tty and terrible it can be. I can't tell you how many times my wife told me she would get out the car if I used cruise control again. I got more of the "if looks could kill" expression on her face in 3 months of using TACC/AP then probably the 5 previous years of marriage, literally.

 

[KOL2000]

How would you know? I own a Plaid with radar and a 2022 Model YP with no radar. The vision only AP in the Y is 1,000 times worse than the Plaid with its Radar. The Y phantoms breaks constantly. Enough that we don't use AP on the Y anymore. How do I know??? Because I actually own both cars and don't just talk out of my ass like you are doing.

Exact same boat as James. I can confirm that the Y AP is not as good but I wouldnt call it unusable, just less useful and less stable than the S with radar. I'm not sure how the vision-only system will work that well as the lag sometimes even on the backup camera is bad. How can vision-only system work with any lag at all? Not about to question Elon and the amazing Tesla team but it will probably take them another year to get this right. As is par for the course here we are all guinea pigs in Tesla's journey.

Its the only way to do it really if they want to develop this quickly.

 

[DayTrippin]

Exact same boat as James. I can confirm that the Y AP is not as good but I wouldnt call it unusable, just less useful and less stable than the S with radar. I'm not sure how the vision-only system will work that well as the lag sometimes even on the backup camera is bad. How can vision-only system work with any lag at all? Not about to question Elon and the amazing Tesla team but it will probably take them another year to get this right. As is par for the course here we are all guinea pigs in Tesla's journey.

Its the only way to do it really if they want to develop this quickly.

That assumes that it CAN be done this way with current hardware. While Tesla does things their own way and often get it right, it is still interesting that most the other companies are using LIDAR. The resolution of LIDAR is pretty good too. The problem with systems that need light, they don't help you in a situation where light won't penetrate enough to give you an image. Fog is a perfect example of this that really shows the limitation of systems requiring some sort of light.

 

[KOL2000]

Yep the LIDAR crowd has a point, but Elon is all about first principles reasoning. Pure vision is how humans do it and if the fog is too dense and you are human you just need to go really slow or simply stop. The corner cases will take some time but I can understand Elon's reasoning here. Basic first principles reasoning leads to the conclusion that only vision is needed for 99.999% of the time.

 

[DayTrippin]

I am more concerned about having systems that work better than we can. Not to rely upon them to drive, but to intervene in the case of an emergency. Perfect use case is back to the fog issue. A car is broken down in dense fog. You can't see and even driving fairly slow, there is still a big risk of hitting what you aren't aware of.

Elon is not the only smart person out there involved in this. The problem is if Tesla gets it really wrong, we all suffer or could be injured. Based on my experience with the Y, they clearly haven't gotten it right and removing the radar made it far worse. How long should we all wait until Tesla gets it right. Just go back and read all the bold predictions about when fool self driving would be ready.

I didn't buy into that BS but I did expect I'd at least have functioning cruise control on my Y without a ton of issues. Haven't driven the S enough to see how good (or bad) it is by comparison.

 

[Ssmtsx]

I’m scheduled to take delivery of my S tomorrow. I was really bummed with not getting the new headlights until I found out it also meant no radar. I had a 21 y with radar that I traded for a 22 vision. The AP in the 22 was unusable. I personally wouldn’t be buying this S if it didn’t have radar.

 

[pilotSteve]

Wait a minute! I remember receiving this update that used radar to see vehicles ahead of the one immediately in front of me by bouncing radar under the first vehicle. It was AMAZING to see good depictions of multiple cars in front of mine. Is this going way with vision only?

Elon Musk explains Tesla Autopilot's new capacity to see ahead of the car in front of you

One of the most impressive new features that Tesla announced today with the Autopilot’s new radar processing capacity is the...

electrek.co

 

[DayTrippin]

I’m scheduled to take delivery of my S tomorrow. I was really bummed with not getting the new headlights until I found out it also meant no radar. I had a 21 y with radar that I traded for a 22 vision. The AP in the 22 was unusable. I personally wouldn’t be buying this S if it didn’t have radar.

That is exactly what I was thinking after I drove our Y. I kept hoping that I'd get my S before they gut the radar from it too. I too was feeling bad about the headlight change but once I hear radar was gone with that configuration, I was glad I didn't get it.

I don't drive that much at night but I'll use TACC/AP every time I drive the S.

@pilotSteve - My radarless Y couldn't see jack in front of it other than the immediate car. I would say that they still aren't at parity with the capabilities it had with radar before they gutted even with 7-8 months of develop it.

 

[dannycamps]

How would you know? I own a Plaid with radar and a 2022 Model YP with no radar. The vision only AP in the Y is 1,000 times worse than the Plaid with its Radar. The Y phantoms breaks constantly. Enough that we don't use AP on the Y anymore.

I own a pre-Raven 100D which had the radar active which I used with FSD until two months ago. What happened two months ago? I got accepted into the FSD beta program and my radar was deactivated and I am now using vision only.

How do I know? Because I've used both radar and vision-based IN THE SAME CAR so I have a direct apples to apples comparison.

 

[Wol747]

I heard it was 11.2x worse, but that might be an exaggeration if it turns out it's only 10x worse.

87.39% of statistics are made up.

 

[aesculus]

Wait a minute! I remember receiving this update that used radar to see vehicles ahead of the one immediately in front of me by bouncing radar under the first vehicle. It was AMAZING to see good depictions of multiple cars in front of mine. Is this going way with vision only?

Elon Musk explains Tesla Autopilot's new capacity to see ahead of the car in front of you

One of the most impressive new features that Tesla announced today with the Autopilot’s new radar processing capacity is the...

electrek.co

Exactly. There were multiple demos, videos and I can attest on at least two occasions I had the car brake before I noticed the car two up that was slowing, even though the car I was following was not.