TigerNinety
Member
My 2016.5 MS 75D is no longer with us (sniff), but I recall one AP disengagement in heavy rain in the last year. It can happen even with radar, FWIW.
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Radarless Driving Report? Anyone?
- Thread starter Zhe Wiz
- Start date
I know it's only a few reports and data points so far that non-radar Model Y's don't do well on AP in the rain. But I fear that Tesla may be taking a step backward. I, too, have a MYLR on order for August delivery, and am wondering if I should wait on Tesla to improve or look at alternatives.
Alternatives I get, but canceling and waiting I don't. If you don't cancel you get to enjoy your MY between now and the likely software fixes. If you do cancel, how is nothing better than ANY MY? The only reason to wait would be if you think the hardware will change. I don't think it's gonna, I think radar is gone and it's going to stay gone. Software will likely solve most of the differences. If not, I got the car to drive not to be driven. I might feel otherwise if I had splurged for FSD.
I just came back from test driving my buddy's new MYLR which was delivered yesterday. At night when you use autopilot the high beams are on unless there's traffic around you. I had previously used auto high beams on my '18 M3LR but disabled it after a week because I didn't like the constant on and off. It was very distracting when you're driving at night.
The second thing I noticed was they removed the passenger seat lumbar adjustment. Seriously, how many $50k+ cars you know without passenger seat lumbar adjustments. Is this a consequence of parts shortage? That's crazy.
Anyways, I have a TM3 which I love and enjoy. While I was hoping to upgrade for more space, I don't think I want to be a beta tester all these changes.
I completely agree, but I guess am just disappointed. I don’t use cruise control in weather where I think my vision or traction are inadequate either, it’s unsafe. However my [perhaps overly optimistic/naive] hope as a TSLA investor was that Tesla’s years of development and R and D investment would see better than other mfg or than I can.
Honestly the cruise/fsd/AP I’d only ever use and although disappointed in them taking a step back from what the March built MYs with radar can do, I understand their hand was forced by market conditions. what has me more concerned is what this means for the passive safety monitoring mechanisms like emergency breaking and lane departures. My wife doesn’t like cruise control anyway, so I see those as of more critical value than cruise/AP. We’ll see what comes out in the next couple weeks/months
I know not rain related, but there’s an interesting vision thread in the FSD forum if you haven’t seen it. They found some tests of radar vs bison of encountering a box covered in foil vs a human shaped cutout. Not a perfect test but demonstrates some of the limitations of this new reliance on vision only
Post in thread 'Tesla.com - "Transitioning to Tesla Vision"'
Tesla.com - "Transitioning to Tesla Vision"
Post in thread 'Tesla.com - "Transitioning to Tesla Vision"'
Tesla.com - "Transitioning to Tesla Vision"
I have ordered FSD, hoping for autonomy in case I need it. I'm 69.
I am not sure software alone will solve the differences. Maybe an upgrade to the cameras would probably improve my confidence overall in the systems. There are clearly limitations for what vision alone can do.
What is interesting to see play out here is sort of like someone in an abusive relationship or Stockholm syndrome. I don't want to use hyperbole here but there are similarities. While a lot of what Tesla has done is good, there are things that aren't right and they hide behind the guise of continuous improvement. I think the definition of improvement would vary between consumer and manufacturer. I understand those who want to give Elon a pass so to speak. I think that was more warranted when Tesla was more of a startup so to speak.
Now that they have a massive market cap, cranking out a lot of cars, I think they should be held to a high standard now. If nobody holds them accountable at some point, they will continue to do the same things and even more.
Having 4 price increases in 2 months, then removing radar, which really seems to be a logistics issue (while claiming they are smarter than the rest of companies and nailed the supply chain) and probably saved them a ton of $$$ and then try to spin it as part of some grand Tesla vision but didn't do anything about hardware that was chosen to use with the aforementioned radar. This is like death by 1,000 cuts and some are fairly deep. In a lot of ways I'll admit they are superior to the competition but that gap is clearly closing. The supercharger network is the biggest trump card at the moment but that isn't as important to me as I likely won't take many, if any, long trips. This whole experience reminds me of the super hot girl I dated in high school. I put up with all her "quirks" to put it nicely. She made me feel like she was doing me a favor by dating me. I thought I had no choice then but to deal with it. Now experience has taught me better.
I hate to say it but the MachE is looking better to me every day at least as an alternative to the MY. My first choice is still the MY but I don't know if I want to deal with all the quirks. I have a MS on order and so far they haven't gutted it so likely to stay with that order. I am taking a wait and see attitude about the MY at this point. Maybe Tesla will pull a rabbit out of their you know what and get it fixed but I don't want to be anyone's guinea pig when it comes to safety features I want for my family. We can all vote with our wallets to so speak. I would like nothing better than Tesla to get this all sorted out very quickly.
I drove one last night. It's kinda annoying to have the high beams on then off when it sees traffic ahead. I'm definitely not a fan of that. It doesn't stop as smoothly as the radar AP. I came around a corner with traffic stopped at the light and it made a really rapid stop. I don't remember the old radar version making such a sudden stop. Also too bad it can't see two cars ahead like the old AP. So for now, I say it's a step backward.
I know we keep focusing on AP, but what about automatic evasive manuevers without AP? Wasn't radar used to prevent front crashes when AP is not in use? Now we have to rely on vision for that? I agree that I'm not looking to use AP in bad weather, but if there is something in front of me that I can't see (nor can the cameras) that I will imminently hit unless I slow down, stop or move out of my lane, I'd rather rely on radar or LiDAR to inform that choice. This is why I feel the NHTSA and IIHS tests are missing an important element of testing accident avoidance systems - they need to test them in both ideal and non-deal situations.
That is my biggest concern, the emergency features more than the AP. I'd only use the AP in good weather anyway. I just want the extra layer of safety these provide.
As far as Autopilot goes, mine seems to work as expected: it slows the car if traffic in front of me slows, and otherwise maintains set speed. Autosteer however - not a fan. The car seems to twitch around in the lane, not really maintaining a smooth track. Not sure if Autosteer used radar in the past, but perhaps the cameras are not looking far enough ahead to anticipate gentle curves - although even in straightaways the car doesn't seem to hold a track for very long. SW is up to date with .1
I mostly agree with what’s been said. I’ve already clocked 450 miles on the car since picking it up this weekend, probably 150 has been with AP driving from NJ to Maryland. It works beautifully in good weather, but there are relatively frequent disengagements in the rain (thought the wipers were perfect, didn’t have to change the settings at all). I thought auto steer worked extremely well and didn’t notice it bouncing around the lane. Didn’t have a problem in stop and go traffic either. AP also seems to handle people merging into my lane better than I remember during my test drives; if the car is clearly going faster than you, it doesn’t skip a beat just because a car is in front of you (maybe an advantage of vision where radar would have panicked? Might be wrong here, someone more experienced can chime in). No phantom breaking that I could detect, but I might not be attuned to it yet since this is my first car with any sort of automated cruise control that I’ve driven for long distances (though I have driven a friends Lexus with similar features). Probably 90% of the time AP disengaged due to weather, I had my hand on the stalk ready to deactivate it anyway because I didn’t feel comfortable yet. I’m hoping as my trust in AP grows, the vision-only AP will improve and gain my trust. FWIW, I could not detect a difference between my 2 test drives of 2020 models with radar and my car, though I used AP in near-perfect conditions for all 3.
Most of the people complaining about vision only (auto high beams, disengagement in bad weather, etc) have experienced the best radar+vision AP. I totally understand where they’re coming from and how this would be a downgrade. I also hope Tesla doesn’t deactivate their radar because that would be a really annoying step backwards. When fellow Tesla drivers ask me what I think about vision, I’ve been telling them it’s most likely going to be a let down for them. That being said, if this is your first Tesla or car with highly-assisted cruise control, the magic is still there, and I don’t think you will be disappointed, unless you’re brave enough to trust AP at full speed in less-than-ideal driving conditions on day 1. I’m by no means a Tesla worshipper and we were seconds away from pulling the trigger on the Toyota Highlander Hybrid, but when it comes to 7 seaters where you’re rarely using the third row, the Tesla made the most sense because I don’t like huge cars (and I have free charging for life in my building
).
tl;dr if this is your first Tesla, just go for it because the car is really special and AP is great under most conditions. If you’re a seasoned Tesla owner, probably best to wait for the dust to settle.
Most of the people complaining about vision only (auto high beams, disengagement in bad weather, etc) have experienced the best radar+vision AP. I totally understand where they’re coming from and how this would be a downgrade. I also hope Tesla doesn’t deactivate their radar because that would be a really annoying step backwards. When fellow Tesla drivers ask me what I think about vision, I’ve been telling them it’s most likely going to be a let down for them. That being said, if this is your first Tesla or car with highly-assisted cruise control, the magic is still there, and I don’t think you will be disappointed, unless you’re brave enough to trust AP at full speed in less-than-ideal driving conditions on day 1. I’m by no means a Tesla worshipper and we were seconds away from pulling the trigger on the Toyota Highlander Hybrid, but when it comes to 7 seaters where you’re rarely using the third row, the Tesla made the most sense because I don’t like huge cars (and I have free charging for life in my building
).tl;dr if this is your first Tesla, just go for it because the car is really special and AP is great under most conditions. If you’re a seasoned Tesla owner, probably best to wait for the dust to settle.
My radar can see two cars ahead (and their speed), where a camera cannot. The car in front of me completely blocked the view of the car in front of it. Even in good weather, you lose valuable information withoit radar.
I picked up my MYLR yesterday and put 450 miles on it in the last 24 hours. I don't have a frame of reference for radar-AP, but I can tell you what i've noticed on this trip.
For the most part it's good when on the highway. There were a few places where it got confused, when the lane is really wide on merging roads (ie a freeway junction), it gets confused and doesn't know what to do. Also when there's an exit for a freeway junction, AP didn't know whether it should stay on the highway I was on or exit, and ended up just disengaging and telling me to take control.
There are still phantom breaking problems, where when I come alongside a big rig on a two lane highway, sometimes it will suddenly break. I've even had it phantom break when the truck was about a mile or so ahead of me and no other cars were near me.
AP lane change is awesome. Nothing else to say about it, but easily one of my favorite features.
The most annoying thing on the highway is autopilot jail for going faster than the limit. This is a problem with AP being reduced to 75MPH. I'm driving I-40 in AZ which is a 75mph speed limit. So if I come up to a truck that is going say 65mph, but there's a line of vehicles coming up along side me, I have to hit the accelerator pretty quick to get over or else I'm stuck behind the truck until I can merge. But if AP detects you going more than 75, it will disengage and put you in AP jail until you stop and go in to park and then back to drive. This might not have been as much of an issue at 90mph, but at 75mph it was annoying and I ended up going long distances without AP because I didn't want to pull over. You can mitigate it by disengaging AP first, but when you're in a hurry to pass someone, if it's not second nature, you're going to get stuck in AP jail.
On mountain driving, curvy roads, it was very iffy. One point driving 35mph on a road by my house, there was a break in the double yellow line and the car jerked in to the oncoming lane (no cars coming luckily) and i had to forefully turn the steering wheel back to get back in to my line. It wasn't gradual, it jerked pretty hard. I have no idea what caused that, but I did save the video so I'm going to have to go back and review it.
One other issue, I'm not sure if it's an issue with radar or not, but it will want to change lanes when people are coming up faster than me in the lane it wants to change to. It don't care if you're going to impede the other vehicle, it wants to change lanes anyway.
Aside from all that, it was pretty good, and if I didn't keep getting stuck in AP jail I would have enjoyed it much more on the 7+ hour drive I was on. 90% of the time it worked fine and made this long drive much more enjoyable than it's ever been.
oh and auto high beams at night keep brighting everyone, including flashing the person in front of me, so yeah that needs to be fixed.
For the most part it's good when on the highway. There were a few places where it got confused, when the lane is really wide on merging roads (ie a freeway junction), it gets confused and doesn't know what to do. Also when there's an exit for a freeway junction, AP didn't know whether it should stay on the highway I was on or exit, and ended up just disengaging and telling me to take control.
There are still phantom breaking problems, where when I come alongside a big rig on a two lane highway, sometimes it will suddenly break. I've even had it phantom break when the truck was about a mile or so ahead of me and no other cars were near me.
AP lane change is awesome. Nothing else to say about it, but easily one of my favorite features.
The most annoying thing on the highway is autopilot jail for going faster than the limit. This is a problem with AP being reduced to 75MPH. I'm driving I-40 in AZ which is a 75mph speed limit. So if I come up to a truck that is going say 65mph, but there's a line of vehicles coming up along side me, I have to hit the accelerator pretty quick to get over or else I'm stuck behind the truck until I can merge. But if AP detects you going more than 75, it will disengage and put you in AP jail until you stop and go in to park and then back to drive. This might not have been as much of an issue at 90mph, but at 75mph it was annoying and I ended up going long distances without AP because I didn't want to pull over. You can mitigate it by disengaging AP first, but when you're in a hurry to pass someone, if it's not second nature, you're going to get stuck in AP jail.
On mountain driving, curvy roads, it was very iffy. One point driving 35mph on a road by my house, there was a break in the double yellow line and the car jerked in to the oncoming lane (no cars coming luckily) and i had to forefully turn the steering wheel back to get back in to my line. It wasn't gradual, it jerked pretty hard. I have no idea what caused that, but I did save the video so I'm going to have to go back and review it.
One other issue, I'm not sure if it's an issue with radar or not, but it will want to change lanes when people are coming up faster than me in the lane it wants to change to. It don't care if you're going to impede the other vehicle, it wants to change lanes anyway.
Aside from all that, it was pretty good, and if I didn't keep getting stuck in AP jail I would have enjoyed it much more on the 7+ hour drive I was on. 90% of the time it worked fine and made this long drive much more enjoyable than it's ever been.
oh and auto high beams at night keep brighting everyone, including flashing the person in front of me, so yeah that needs to be fixed.
I also am having mysterious braking happening out of the blue when cruise is set in autopilot. It has happened to me about 3 times now. Once to the point I let it go to see what would happen on the highway and the MY came to a complete stop. Nobody was in front or behind or around me. the other times it started to brake hard then started to drive normal. Nobody was around me. The only thing I noticed one of the times was its was a 2 lane road with lots of low limb trees close to the road. Not another car around in any of the cases. Kind of scary
Yeah happened to me again on my trip back, but there were a couple motorcycles behind me and it started braking hard. I also notice it brakes sometimes when a truck is behind and to the side of me, but nothing is in front of me.
Ok, I bit the bullet and took delivery of a demo MY LR today. It clearly has no radar and apparently I didn't win the passenger lumbar support lottery either. The cameras took a few miles to adapt before I could use AP.
The weather was good so now issues keeping it between the lines so to speak. The following distance though was crazy long. If it has to stay this way, people are going to be cutting in front of me ALL the time in any kind of traffic. On a side road, there was a moderate turn with no warning signs to slow down below the posted limit of 45 mph. I kept AP on to see how it would negotiate with my hands on the wheel. It braked down to 39 mph and then Mr. Magoo'd itself through the turn and sped back up to 45 mph later.
The worst was when I pulled into my subdivision. The entrance to my house is about .6 miles. In the span of that distance, I had 2 phantom braking incidents at about 25 mph. This was not with AP on but as a result the AEB and an imminent collision warning was sounded. I have driven through that section countless times with my Acura and never, ever had a phantom braking incident.
Can't say I am impressed with the implementation of this system by any means.
If you haven't been around long enough to remember Mr. Magoo here is one of the cartoons. Here is what Wikipedia says:
"Mr. Magoo (known by his full name: J. Quincy Magoo) is a fictional cartoon character created at the UPA animation studio in 1949. Voiced by Jim Backus, Mr. Magoo is an elderly, wealthy, short-statured retiree who gets into a series of comical situations as a result of his extreme near-sightedness, compounded by his stubborn refusal to admit the problem. However, through uncanny streaks of luck, the situation always seems to work itself out for him, leaving him no worse than before."
I felt like Tesla Vision had Mr. Magoo programmed into its code on my ride home.
How they are ever going to get to FSD with this system is beyond me. My Tesla Vision clearly needs glasses, Xrays, lidar, radar and possibly a white cane to negotiate my subdivision.
For anybody with this, does it ever get any better? Or is this as good as it gets?
The weather was good so now issues keeping it between the lines so to speak. The following distance though was crazy long. If it has to stay this way, people are going to be cutting in front of me ALL the time in any kind of traffic. On a side road, there was a moderate turn with no warning signs to slow down below the posted limit of 45 mph. I kept AP on to see how it would negotiate with my hands on the wheel. It braked down to 39 mph and then Mr. Magoo'd itself through the turn and sped back up to 45 mph later.
The worst was when I pulled into my subdivision. The entrance to my house is about .6 miles. In the span of that distance, I had 2 phantom braking incidents at about 25 mph. This was not with AP on but as a result the AEB and an imminent collision warning was sounded. I have driven through that section countless times with my Acura and never, ever had a phantom braking incident.
Can't say I am impressed with the implementation of this system by any means.
If you haven't been around long enough to remember Mr. Magoo here is one of the cartoons. Here is what Wikipedia says:
"Mr. Magoo (known by his full name: J. Quincy Magoo) is a fictional cartoon character created at the UPA animation studio in 1949. Voiced by Jim Backus, Mr. Magoo is an elderly, wealthy, short-statured retiree who gets into a series of comical situations as a result of his extreme near-sightedness, compounded by his stubborn refusal to admit the problem. However, through uncanny streaks of luck, the situation always seems to work itself out for him, leaving him no worse than before."
I felt like Tesla Vision had Mr. Magoo programmed into its code on my ride home.
How they are ever going to get to FSD with this system is beyond me. My Tesla Vision clearly needs glasses, Xrays, lidar, radar and possibly a white cane to negotiate my subdivision.
For anybody with this, does it ever get any better? Or is this as good as it gets?
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