Range Loss Over Time, What Can Be Expected, Efficiency, How to Maintain Battery Health

[AAKEE]

New question - will modifications to the car affect the screen calculation? I am running wider 20s, lowering springs, a front splitter and wheel spacers. As a result of these modifications I regularly get lower range than projected. I assume those are affecting my average consumption calculations? If so wouldn't that alter the calculation? Edit and mudflaps

The energy app use actual values, as in actual consumtion to calculate range etc.
It is affected from modifications. For example will a lowered car have lower drag, thus lower consumtion.
But it is the total effect of all changes that you will see.

My M3P is lowered( H&R springs) and I use moderate spacers to not get any poke.
I get about 10Wh/km(16Wh/mi) lower consumption at highways than before mounting the lowering kit.

The range indication at the battery symbol is not affected. It’s practically a battery meter but the scale is km/miles.

 

[AAKEE]

Looks like I need to keep the car at a lower SOC although that's a bummer because it takes away the performance. I'll run the screen test but im a little afraid.

If you ”need” the power, you could still charge to 80% but set the timing to have the charging done just in time.
Calendar aging comes from Time at SOC, so if it stands parked with 50% or so that SOC will be the base gor calendar aging(which will be about half from the 80-ish level).
Minimize the time parked with high SOC is the solution.

The internal resistance is the source of voltage drop at full throttle/high power.
Calendar aging does not only cause capacity drop but it also causes increased internal resistance.
Increased internal resistance reduce the power that the battery can deliver.
Storage below 60-70% SOC causes about the same increase in internal resistance if the temperatures are moderate(25C or below). At higher temps there is a clear difference from 40% SOC.
So parked at 80% there will be a higher increase in internal resistance. And in the long run, the punch/power will be lower at full throttle.
In the M3 Performance the battery is the power limiting factor, so reduced power from the batt will show as lower power to the wheels.
I have decided to try to keep the battery fresh, as long as it doesnt get too complicated. I use avout 25-30% daily and have the charging set to 55%. The charging is set to be finished about 1-2h before I leave for work. I use the same settings during weekends but most often drive less so it stands with 55% for more time during the weekends. During the weeks it sits at about 30% at night before the charging starts.
I will have less power available at 55% than if I had used 80%, but on the other hand I probably keep the maximum power at high SOC longer time than if I had used 80% as the daily charging level.
At 25000km it started to ”loose range”, I did have full range until recently. Currently at about 502-504km(it looks more like this range loss is coupled to the new firmware than other).

 

[clerks]

The energy app use actual values, as in actual consumtion to calculate range etc.
It is affected from modifications. For example will a lowered car have lower drag, thus lower consumtion.
But it is the total effect of all changes that you will see.

My M3P is lowered( H&R springs) and I use moderate spacers to not get any poke.
I get about 10Wh/km(16Wh/mi) lower consumption at highways than before mounting the lowering kit.

The range indication at the battery symbol is not affected. It’s practically a battery meter but the scale is km/miles.

Thanks. Doesn't this mean using the energy app methodology to calculate remaining battery pack capacity won't work when your car is modified?

 

[clerks]

If you ”need” the power, you could still charge to 80% but set the timing to have the charging done just in time.
Calendar aging comes from Time at SOC, so if it stands parked with 50% or so that SOC will be the base gor calendar aging(which will be about half from the 80-ish level).
Minimize the time parked with high SOC is the solution.

The internal resistance is the source of voltage drop at full throttle/high power.
Calendar aging does not only cause capacity drop but it also causes increased internal resistance.
Increased internal resistance reduce the power that the battery can deliver.
Storage below 60-70% SOC causes about the same increase in internal resistance if the temperatures are moderate(25C or below). At higher temps there is a clear difference from 40% SOC.
So parked at 80% there will be a higher increase in internal resistance. And in the long run, the punch/power will be lower at full throttle.
In the M3 Performance the battery is the power limiting factor, so reduced power from the batt will show as lower power to the wheels.
I have decided to try to keep the battery fresh, as long as it doesnt get too complicated. I use avout 25-30% daily and have the charging set to 55%. The charging is set to be finished about 1-2h before I leave for work. I use the same settings during weekends but most often drive less so it stands with 55% for more time during the weekends. During the weeks it sits at about 30% at night before the charging starts.
I will have less power available at 55% than if I had used 80%, but on the other hand I probably keep the maximum power at high SOC longer time than if I had used 80% as the daily charging level.
At 25000km it started to ”loose range”, I did have full range until recently. Currently at about 502-504km(it looks more like this range loss is coupled to the new firmware than other).
View attachment 722159

This makes sense. I'll try to employ some of this going forward. You are seeing range loss from a recent software update? I wonder if that's part of my issue too?I assume that is not real? Or is it?

 

[AAKEE]

This makes sense. I'll try to employ some of this going forward. You are seeing range loss from a recent software update? I wonder if that's part of my issue too?I assume that is not real? Or is it?

Yes, the same day the 2021.32.21 was installed it started showing less range( i only ”lost” about 4-5km from 508 to 503-ish)

But the real range did not change with the firmware. The real range is only depending on the battery capacity(for same consumption etc.).

Tesla say something like ”new better range indication” so the new firmware is supposed to reflect real life better.
Actually my own calcs for degradation put me around or slightly below 80kWh( this is shown somewhere around in a thread here).
So actually the Nominal full pack (and range value) is closer to my own calculations right now.

In my case the car cant continue to show full range forever. Degradation is inevitable and the range will go down.

This is my Nominal full pack, was mostly betwen 80.3 and 81.0 kWh lately. The right vertical dotted red line is the install time of 2021.32.21

 

[Jazzmannca]

I ordered my M3LR car exactly two years ago today and picked it up on Christmas eve (9 weeks later) 2019. When I drove off the lot, 100 soc was 315 miles. 1 yr and 10 months later 100 soc is only 274. I also paid $6K for FSD. My safety score is 98 because Tesla is unforgiving of the insane drivers here in Houston where I have no choice but to react to others stupidity. I suppose I "might" get FSD in the next couple weeks assuming the NTSB doesn't shut down the release of FSD. That being said I am beyond upset how much battery degradation it has. I've read posts on how to recover some of it and I tried it and it didn't help. I also bought acceleration boost and had been driving mostly in sport mode because why pay $2K to be able to 0-60 in 3.7 seconds and not do it? So yeah I love sport mode. Should I sue Tesla for not telling consumers if they do a lot of 0-60's and use sport mode it would result in such high battery degradation? No I'm not going to bother suing. Stupid. No...I'm done. I'm selling it and I should get somewhere near $50K for it. 2019 M3LR w/32K miles.

What would you do?

 

[Sophias_dad]

I'd actually contact the SC to see what they say.

It might be worth noting that my 2018 AWD 3 with 45k miles dropped from 285 to 277 for its 100% charge in the past month. I'm becoming displeased.

 

[outdoors]

My S has half the degradation and double the miles of my 3. I like the Panasonic 18650's better than the 2170's. 2170 was all the rage, but no numbers to back it up. Now it is starting to show.

The button just dragged everyone back in like a hook with a worm on it that a bass couldn't resist.

 

[dduffey]

I ordered my M3LR car exactly two years ago today and picked it up on Christmas eve (9 weeks later) 2019. When I drove off the lot, 100 soc was 315 miles. 1 yr and 10 months later 100 soc is only 274. I also paid $6K for FSD. My safety score is 98 because Tesla is unforgiving of the insane drivers here in Houston where I have no choice but to react to others stupidity. I suppose I "might" get FSD in the next couple weeks assuming the NTSB doesn't shut down the release of FSD. That being said I am beyond upset how much battery degradation it has. I've read posts on how to recover some of it and I tried it and it didn't help. I also bought acceleration boost and had been driving mostly in sport mode because why pay $2K to be able to 0-60 in 3.7 seconds and not do it? So yeah I love sport mode. Should I sue Tesla for not telling consumers if they do a lot of 0-60's and use sport mode it would result in such high battery degradation? No I'm not going to bother suing. Stupid. No...I'm done. I'm selling it and I should get somewhere near $50K for it. 2019 M3LR w/32K miles.

What would you do?

I would not be happy either. I wish the battery warranty had coverage by years rather than 70% over 8 years, because ~15% in ~2 years feels a bit high.

It does sound like you enjoyed the car a bit more than average

I don't think Tesla will change your battery because technically it is still "okay". But if you haven't I would schedule service for them to check your battery via the app, they can do that remotely. They will probably say they don't detect anything wrong.

Then I would and speak to a SC manager. I think you have the right to be upset, but remain calm and just state matter of factory that you aren't happy and will end up selling the car and getting something else that won't lose 40 miles of range in it's first two years of ownership. Unfortunately that may be what you will have to do

Good luck, let us know what you end up doing.

 

[PDX-Y]

You're measuring 13% loss of capacity in a two year old vehicle, and haven't yet checked with a service center to see if it's a calibration issue.

Really, this doesn't seem like the world falling apart to me. At this rate, assuming that it's a 100% real effect, you're going to be at 70% after six years and ~70k miles instead of 8 years and 100k miles that we all tend to expect. It's above median but not outrageously so.

Maybe... you're just upset that your car isn't "new" anymore? Cars get old.

 

[dduffey]

You're measuring 13% loss of capacity in a two year old vehicle, and haven't yet checked with a service center to see if it's a calibration issue.

Really, this doesn't seem like the world falling apart to me. At this rate, assuming that it's a 100% real effect, you're going to be at 70% after six years and ~70k miles instead of 8 years and 100k miles that we all tend to expect. It's above median but not outrageously so.

Maybe... you're just upset that your car isn't "new" anymore? Cars get old.

Right, but at 70% it would be covered under warranty. There must be a "line" somewhere ... 8 years/70% is a long time to wait when something like the following could catch issues earlier

1 yr 90%
2 85%
3 80%
5 75%
7 70%

 

[PDX-Y]

There must be a "line" somewhere ... 8 years/70% is a long time to wait

Sure, so take it in and get it looked at. My understanding is that most such problems end up being BMS calibration issues anyway.

But OP jumped straight to "I'm selling my car!" and "Should I sue Tesla?", which tells me the root cause is more of an emotional transition than a technical problem. At the end of the day, even Teslas get old and junky over time; they're magic, but they can't defeat thermodynamics. A lot of Tesla owners aren't really prepared to own a decaying car. (There's a reason why the typical lease period for a premium car is two years, basically.)

 

[Baluchi]

What would you do?

Sell the Model LR for $50,000, and then buy a Model SR+ LFP out of existing inventory for $42,000. You pocket about $8,000 and get a brand new Model 3 with effectively more range you currently have with your LR (because you can charge the LFP to 100% routinely). Plus the LFP packs are supposed to be resistant to degradation. You lose some acceleration and AWD, sure. If that's a deal-breaker for you, then this won't be an appealing option. But you gain a heat pump, a more efficient car, and the relief of not worrying constantly about battery degradation. To me, the LFP battery makes the current SR+ the best car (for my needs) in the Tesla fleet. I'm so grateful that I (probably) won't have to contend with the loss of range that seems to frustrate many owners. Just my 2 cents.

 

[clerks]

Yes, the same day the 2021.32.21 was installed it started showing less range( i only ”lost” about 4-5km from 508 to 503-ish)

But the real range did not change with the firmware. The real range is only depending on the battery capacity(for same consumption etc.).

Tesla say something like ”new better range indication” so the new firmware is supposed to reflect real life better.
Actually my own calcs for degradation put me around or slightly below 80kWh( this is shown somewhere around in a thread here).
So actually the Nominal full pack (and range value) is closer to my own calculations right now.

In my case the car cant continue to show full range forever. Degradation is inevitable and the range will go down.

This is my Nominal full pack, was mostly betwen 80.3 and 81.0 kWh lately. The right vertical dotted red line is the install time of 2021.32.21
View attachment 722176

Quick math lat night had my pack at 75 which can't possibly by right can it? 10 months old 6k miles. I have not abused charging or supercharged more than twice.

 

[smogne41]

I ordered my M3LR car exactly two years ago today and picked it up on Christmas eve (9 weeks later) 2019. When I drove off the lot, 100 soc was 315 miles. 1 yr and 10 months later 100 soc is only 274. I also paid $6K for FSD. My safety score is 98 because Tesla is unforgiving of the insane drivers here in Houston where I have no choice but to react to others stupidity. I suppose I "might" get FSD in the next couple weeks assuming the NTSB doesn't shut down the release of FSD. That being said I am beyond upset how much battery degradation it has. I've read posts on how to recover some of it and I tried it and it didn't help. I also bought acceleration boost and had been driving mostly in sport mode because why pay $2K to be able to 0-60 in 3.7 seconds and not do it? So yeah I love sport mode. Should I sue Tesla for not telling consumers if they do a lot of 0-60's and use sport mode it would result in such high battery degradation? No I'm not going to bother suing. Stupid. No...I'm done. I'm selling it and I should get somewhere near $50K for it. 2019 M3LR w/32K miles.

What would you do?

Which wheels do you have? That can have a big impact, and if I recall the range estimates were not always derated for the larger wheels, but that was added eventually (don't remember exactly when). The larger wheels can easily knock off 10% of your range. But yeah, other than that try and get some battery diagnostics (either from Tesla or somebody independent who will do it). That much actual degradation does seem a bit high, but hopefully it is just a balance issue that can be recovered somehow.

 

[AAKEE]

Quick math lat night had my pack at 75 which can't possibly by right can it? 10 months old 6k miles. I have not abused charging or supercharged more than twice.

A few Superchargings doesnt matter.
With high SOC during many hours the calendar aging is the dominant factor by far.

I googled Pittsburgh temps. Statistically you have 145 days reaching 70F, 70 reaching 80F and 7 reaching 90F each year.
If the car stand outside the cabin get hot and probably heat the battery. If its inside a not insulated garage that get hot it might be the same thing?
Just for that temps in pittsburgh you might have an average of 25C or so for the 145+70+7 days? Thats 7,5 months at 25C ?
That would look like a little more than 4% degradation for that part of the year. If we use that temp for the whole 10 months it looks like slightly more then 5% for that time.
Your driving cycles might be in the area of 1% degradation( some 3% per 100 full eqvivalent cycles(FCE), and 6K miles should be around 25FCE).

So your total degradation could be in the ball park of 6% ?
What was the max range when you got the car? Maybe your initial capacity was about 80.5kWh(most common NFP value when new I think) then you could be around a NFP of 75.5kWh today.

You could try to calibrate the BMS and get the NFP up, but its very possible the real capacity is about those 75kWh.
Calibrate BMS, leave the car for at least a couple of hours at 20% or so, leave it at 80% or so and perhaps some points between also. Disable Sentry mode to make the car sleep completely.
Theres a lot of info about BMS calibration; ont thread is something like ”how I got my range back”.

 

[TBrownTX]

“Should I sue Tesla for not telling consumers if they do a lot of 0-60's and use sport mode it would result in such high battery degradation?”

Do you have proof of this?

Tim

 

[Wnuk]

Likely a BMS calibration issue. And depending on your location if could be temperature related. Start with this thread linked below.
How I Recovered Half of my Battery's Lost Capacity

 

[Twiglett]

I ordered my M3LR car exactly two years ago today and picked it up on Christmas eve (9 weeks later) 2019. When I drove off the lot, 100 soc was 315 miles. 1 yr and 10 months later 100 soc is only 274. I also paid $6K for FSD. My safety score is 98 because Tesla is unforgiving of the insane drivers here in Houston where I have no choice but to react to others stupidity. I suppose I "might" get FSD in the next couple weeks assuming the NTSB doesn't shut down the release of FSD. That being said I am beyond upset how much battery degradation it has. I've read posts on how to recover some of it and I tried it and it didn't help. I also bought acceleration boost and had been driving mostly in sport mode because why pay $2K to be able to 0-60 in 3.7 seconds and not do it? So yeah I love sport mode. Should I sue Tesla for not telling consumers if they do a lot of 0-60's and use sport mode it would result in such high battery degradation? No I'm not going to bother suing. Stupid. No...I'm done. I'm selling it and I should get somewhere near $50K for it. 2019 M3LR w/32K miles.

What would you do?

I had similar thing with my 2018LR.
There is an excellent thread on checking real capacity of the battery over here. Its pretty long, so maybe just read the first few pages then skip to the end

Range Loss Over Time, What Can Be Expected, Efficiency, How to Maintain Battery Health

i bought my model 3 in aug 2018. After the software upgrade I only got 316 miles when charged to 100%. Last night I got only 312 miles from 5% SOC to 100%. A 4% degradation within 10 months? Have others degraded similarly?

teslamotorsclub.com

I also opened a service request through the app. They checked the battery and BMS remotely and reported no issues with the battery. They did tell me that the BMS was incorrectly interpreting my drive/charge patterns - I leave the charge percentage at 90% and drive maybe 10-20% a day.
Apparently that is great for battery longevity but not so great for letting the BMS figure out range.
Sure enough, after I went on a 400 mile mini road trip the battery "recovered" some range - which means nothing of the sort happened, it just gave the BMS better data to work with.
I will say that the range indicator while driving has become much more accurate in recent versions. Previously it was wildly optimistic, but now its been uncannily accurate, even on longer drives its within a few miles of the pre-drive prediction.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

New question - will modifications to the car affect the screen calculation?

Thanks. Doesn't this mean using the energy app methodology to calculate remaining battery pack capacity won't work when your car is modified?

The energy screen method is completely unaffected by modifications. You’ll see higher consumption and lower projected range - so the answer will not change.

Two of the values will change; the final answer will be identical. As one would expect!

If you post your 75kWh picture that could help here; we can double check the calculations.

The reason it does not change, regardless of how you drive, is that all the numbers on the energy screen are based on the minimum of your pack capacity or the degradation threshold (so whichever value is lower). So you’re simply calculating back to that fundamental number. Degradation threshold for 2021 Performance is about 80.7kWh.

75kWh after 10 months in a 2021 Performance which should start with at least 80kWh would be disappointing. But I don’t think it is necessarily unusual - @AAKEE has the limited TeslaFi data from the fleet. The exact capacity loss trends for the 82kWh packs aren’t clear.

You could also check your pack label but with a performance you started at around 80kWh (82.1kWh pack).