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Red Hands of Shame

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While it hasn't quite been forced, the VW diesel recall will be. Yes it is a federal recall and the states will force it to be done. But hey - that has never happened in the history of automotive transport.

Lots of things have never happened before until they do. You have been coerced pretty hard to change software versions - Right?

I'm always interested when someone's location fits with things they write - it is the internet of course. Usually it is someone from CA telling us East Coasters to slow down and smell the roses. But here it is a Canuck informing US citizens that the government won't ever force us to do anything. Whenever this issue comes up, remember our history. We stopped the Brits and you went along. :). It doesn't really matter that most of our families came here long after that. We will always distrust government in ways that Europe (and Europe-like NA country) will never understand.

(But I appreciate you probably don't trust government either)
It's okay to disagree with @green1 on what he says but you lost me by insulting where he's from. Not cool.
 
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Green1 was arguing from a historical perspective saying that they haven't ever before so why should they now? Good question. Things may stay the same, or they might change, so I'm not going to take a stand on that one! :p

Really, I don't see how location matters. Everywhere governments are the same: never happy with the amount of power they have, always trying to mess with things that work fine already, always slow at anything unless it involves spying on citizens (their own or others'), and ever privatizing businesses with the promise that it'll cost users less in the end and (duh!) it always ends up costing us more!
 
would also like you to show precedent of a single recall the NHTSA has ever done that forced the owners to have the recall done against their will.

I just got an emmissions recall on our Audi that I am REQUIRED to perform prior to registering the car at my renewal time per the state of CA. (Not diesel-gate, some other thing with the catalytic converter). I suppose my only recourse if I didn't want to do it would be to move or sell the car out of state.

And that's not even a safety related recall and I am forced into it. So it can happen.
 
I think it's important to note that Green1 is on version 7.0 before the nag behavior changed. His transition to version 8.0 would be a fairly major change in nag behavior. But, for those of us that transitioned from 7.1 to 8.0 I don't believe the nags really increased much.

I just got done with a 400 mile round trip, and barely got nagged at all. It's roughly the same as it was before. I imagine those who don't use any hands at all will get more nags, but shouldn't they? I don't believe the manual ever said you can just hold your hands near the steering wheel.

When it comes down to it there is nothing about AP that is perfect.

Even when you do have a hand on a steering wheel there is times where it doesn't detect. For me it's once or twice In 400 miles.

There are times where AP is just plain stupid. Where it gets squirmy and you see the lines going all over the place. It's happened even when the road looked fine to me. It's usually very brief, and you either hold through it or turn it off when it happens. This doesn't happen often, but for me it happens 2-3 times more often than nags. I can feel it twitchy both from my butt, and my hand on the steering wheel.

That is likely why I don't care much about the nags. Sure it's stupid, and sure it doesn't mean anything. But, it's what the automotive industry seems to have settled on for now. What I do care about much more is the AP brain farts.
 
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It's okay to disagree with @green1 on what he says but you lost me by insulting where he's from. Not cool.

Was that really all that insulting? Where someone is from plays a large role in how they see things, and what there experiences are. There isn't anything insulting about that. To me that was the meat and potatoes of the argument.

As a white male I can't tell a black male what his experience is. If I tried to do so I would be called out on it.

In all of Green1's arguments he never quite appreciates the level of stupidity in the US. Why? because he doesn't live here. This election to him doesn't feel like a zombie is eating your brains.

If he was from the US he'd be more likely to say "Ughh, this is why we can't have nice things", and he wouldn't be all that bothered by nanny restrictions designed to protect us all from Zombies.
 
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Was that really all that insulting? Where someone is from plays a large role in how they see things, and what there experiences are. There isn't anything insulting about that. To me that was the meat and potatoes of the argument.

As a white male I can't tell a black male what his experience is. If I tried to do so I would be called out on it.

In all of Green1's arguments he never quite appreciates the level of stupidity in the US. Why? because he doesn't live here. This election to him doesn't feel like a zombie is eating your brains.

If he was from the US he'd be more likely to say "Ughh, this is why we can't have nice things", and he wouldn't be all that bothered by nanny restrictions designed to protect us all from Zombies.
Yeah I thought it was. The whole thing from the opening to the comment that we stopped the Brits while Canada went along implying they are what? Weak? The positions that green takes are supported more by people from the U.S, than Canada so it doesn't seem to me its culture related. But even if it was, using someone's culture against them to refute their opinion is insulting.
It wasn't because he called him a "Canuck". I understand that one of Canada's biggest sports teams is the Canucks and I don't think it was meant in a derogatory way. At least I hope it wasn't.
 
using someone's culture against them to refute their opinion is insulting.

Refute outright? Of course not, but there is no getting around the fact that culture played a HUGE role in Tesla's decision. So obviously culture is going to play a large part in how people interpret the decision. Like those in Europe are likely going to be more friendly towards nags.

Everyone on this forum has their own individual take on it, but what made Green1 standout was he was the only one who backed up their opinion with action. He's the only one I'm aware of who owns an AP enabled car that is still on Version 7.0.

But, it also means as time goes on that his opinion will matter less because he'll be too far behind. He's just sitting way back there yelling at us telling us we're going the wrong way. It might be the wrong way, but it's a little late now.
 
Refute outright? Of course not, but there is no getting around the fact that culture played a HUGE role in Tesla's decision. So obviously culture is going to play a large part in how people interpret the decision. Like those in Europe are likely going to be more friendly towards nags.

Everyone on this forum has their own individual take on it, but what made Green1 standout was he was the only one who backed up their opinion with action. He's the only one I'm aware of who owns an AP enabled car that is still on Version 7.0.

But, it also means as time goes on that his opinion will matter less because he'll be too far behind. He's just sitting way back there yelling at us telling us we're going the wrong way. It might be the wrong way, but it's a little late now.
Just read about an auto shop still using a Commodore 64 computer to run their business today, interesting, but who cares? Autopilot marches on, 99.9% will go with the superior new tech, a few will stay behind, trying to explain how the typewriter is superior to the word processor or something. More power to them, but who cares?
 
Refute outright? Of course not, but there is no getting around the fact that culture played a HUGE role in Tesla's decision. So obviously culture is going to play a large part in how people interpret the decision. Like those in Europe are likely going to be more friendly towards nags.

Everyone on this forum has their own individual take on it, but what made Green1 standout was he was the only one who backed up their opinion with action. He's the only one I'm aware of who owns an AP enabled car that is still on Version 7.0.

But, it also means as time goes on that his opinion will matter less because he'll be too far behind. He's just sitting way back there yelling at us telling us we're going the wrong way. It might be the wrong way, but it's a little late now.
When you say culture played a huge role in Tesla's decision I assume you mean AP controls like speed limited on undivided highways and nags? If so, I think there are several other countries with simular regulatory environments to ours that are just waiting to see what the NHTSA does and will follow.
 
When you say culture played a huge role in Tesla's decision I assume you mean AP controls like speed limited on undivided highways and nags? If so, I think there are several other countries with simular regulatory environments to ours that are just waiting to see what the NHTSA does and will follow.

My take on it is the predominant pressure was public perception. When you're a car manufacture that has more pre-orders than actual sales you have to counter any major perception problem. The perception problem was that Tesla was of the Silicon Valley mindset, and was reckless.

There was also the threat of regulatory oversight in lots of different countries. With a lot of new technologies the NHTSA generally takes a wait and see attitude. They also have a tendency to negotiate with manufactures because the regulatory process takes too long. For example the NHTSA didn't force manufactures to make AEB a standard feature. Instead they "encouraged" automakers to make AEB a standard feature, and now we have commitments from 20 manufactures to have AEB as a standard feature by 2022. It should be noted that Tesla already had AEB as a standard feature starting way back in late 2014.

As to other countries I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment. I can't even make heads or tails of the regulatory environment in HK. :p

For myself I'm of a conflict nature on all of this. I have four different thoughts at once.

1.) The above understanding of pressure of the media and regulatory agencies

2.) My own culture is against nags, and I'm against treating customers like they're stupid. If Green1 was the head of Tesla and he decreed "No nags for everyone" I would say "Hell yeah!!"

3.) The belief that Level 2 driving requires an extremely good AEB system. The AEB system in 7.0/7.1 simply wasn't up to the task, and 8.0/8.1 will fix that.

4.) The knowledge that the restrictions have piss poor technical implementations. That they're annoyances at best.

In the end I do believe this entire thing is going to be short term so I loaded up 8.0, and I'm just going to go with the flow to see where it takes us. I didn't get a Tesla to have a car as much as to ride an adventure so it works for me.
 
You keep claiming that the NHTSA has SECRETLY ordered Tesla to disable things on peoples cars. Either provide the statement from the NHTSA, or agree that Tesla is doing this of their own accord.

Unfair question. It's like asking "When did you stop beating your wife?"

People, people. You're taking a very simplistic view of how these interactions work. For every policy that's formally mandated there are a dozen that are informally agreed on on a you-don't-want-us-to-make-you-do-this-oh-no-we-certainly-don't-please-allow-us-to-"voluntarily"-do-something basis. There would typically be no public record of such "deals", which suits both parties.So when people suggest that a change was made "for" NHTSA I'm pretty sure they mean "to head off future potential problems with NHTSA".

That's exactly how it works in real life. Just like the fact that 95% of lawsuits don't go to trial. And just like when Trump violated the Palm Beach by-laws with his massive flag at his Mar-a-Lago Club it settled by way of:

image001.jpg


The same will happen with Tesla and NHTSA. Well, Elon won't be donating $100k he got from charity contributions to Vets but there will be a settlement (or perhaps "resolution" is a better word after a series of concessions one of which may be 8.0) behind closed doors that the public likely won't even hear about, or if we do, it will contain no admission of wrongdoing as you can bet the Exhibit "B" release does in the excerpt above.

I think there are several other countries with similar regulatory environments to ours that are just waiting to see what the NHTSA does and will follow.

Yes, in fact, Transport Canada cites NHTSA 5 times just on their webpage on various issues:

Road Safety in Canada - Transport Canada
 
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How did we go from AP nags to Trump buying a right to fly his flag? ;)
The nags are just that but I don't think Tesla had a choice. We don't want the NHTSA forcing changes. They will just screw it up much worse. A wheel sensor would be helpful though so I can avoid these nags while i'm HOLDING THE WHEEL! :mad:
 
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