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Results from the "350 kW" / 500A DCFC session is finally here!

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Results from the "350 kW" / 500A DCFC session is finally here! 🤩

To test the charging curve, I drove my Model Y on the freeway to discharge the car down to 5% SoC.
My plan was to go to a "350 kW" / 500A EA DCFC nearby. I navigated to a near the EA DCFC to make sure the battery is preconditioned for optimal charging.

I plugged into the EA "350 kW" / 500A station at 5% and charged up to 95% using the Tesla CCS adapter. Charging that last 5% was going to take way too long, and really isn't important for this test.

It added 67 kWh to the battery in 43 mins (5% - 90%). 🔋
Total cost was 67 kWh * $0.43/kWh = $28.81 ⚡

I saw 191 kW peak power dispensed from the DCFC via EA's screen at 30% SoC.

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Now onto the nerdy stuff...

Verification of "350 kW" / 500A DCFC via unit label: 🏷️

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Summary receipt from EA after the charging session: 📜

tq9Uvo.md.png


Interesting to note, they do show in the receipt that the "350 kW" CCS connector was used, and dispensed at a max charging speed of 189.3 kW.

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And now for the interesting bits, charging data! Captured and graphed by Teslamate.
(Click for high-res charging curve):



The curve is very nice, except for the first 5% (5-10%) it took a bit to ramp up the power. It then followed a rise in power as voltage rose and a natural decaying curve once it hit peak at 30%, expected as the battery becomes full.

Summarizing stats in text form, for convenience:

5%: 105 kW | 327 V | 321 A
10%: 136 kW | 352 V | 386 A
15%: 182 kW | 362 V | 503 A
20%: 185 kW | 371 V | 499 A
25%: 187 kW | 375 V | 499 A
30%: 190 kW | 380 V | 500 A (PEAK POWER!) ⚡
40%: 160 kW | 383 V | 418 A
50%: 124 kW | 386 V | 321 A
60%: 102 kW | 390 V | 262 A
70%: 84 kW | 395 V | 213 A
80%: 59 kW | 400 V | 148 A
90%: 41 kW | 402 V | 102 A
95%: 28 kW | 402 V | 70 A

Remember, these are stats that the car is reporting delivered to the battery. So the power dispensed by the DCFC will be slightly higher.
The amperage is not reported in the stats. It was calculated by me manually by dividing the power by the voltage.


I think my test may not have been 100% optimal, as I've screen screen snaps of other members charging at 200+ kW at 500A EA stations (pulling well over 530A from the station). However those may have been an anomaly with the station allowing the car to exceed the CCS spec temporarily? Either way, I don't think I myself could've done any better, I challenge someone else to give it a try at low SoC %!

Another thing we learned here is that the Model Y is a charging beast! What other car charges from 5% to 95% in just 43 mins?
5% to 80% in just 27 mins! And this is on a 500A-capped CCS DCFC. I believe Tesla superchargers go up to 750A for V3 250 kW ones (250 kW / 350V = 714A).

This car just gulps all the amps it can take. Too bad it can't maintain those high amps beyond 30% (cooling deficiency?). Other 500A / 400V cars like the Rivian and EQC peaks at "only" 500A, but can maintain that for much longer than the Model Y.
 
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Wow, good information! Last I knew the CCS standard maxed out at 500 amps... either they have upgraded the standard, or that station is putting out current in excess of the CCS standard... I would love to learn that they have updated the standard, do you have any information on this?
Yes, the CCS spec was just updated earlier this month to 4th edition (to max 800A). See my post below about this, if you want to pay for and read the official CCS spec. But considering it was just ratified this month, I highly doubt any commercially-deployed charging station is following it yet.

Looks like on the EVgo charging screen it shows "Max 950V"/"Max 540A", so EVgo themselves is breaking the CCS spec by providing a more than 500A-capable DCFC 😁. I guess they don't follow the spec (which is 400A btw), and the worst thing that can happen is that they'll get a slap on their hands by the overlords, heh.

 
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I did one charge to 100% and when the car reached 100% it was still charging at 20 KW... no way in hell was it actually at 100% SOC if it was still capable of accepting 20 KW of power! I could have probably kept charging for another half hour
I have sat at Superchargers in the past with my car set to charge to 100% (when I was alone at the Supercharger) and had it sit at 99% for 30+ minutes, and I have given up. I have also seen it go to 100% quickly, but then when I unplug it says I am actually at 98 or 99%.

I have been able to charge at home on 14 amps where it went to and stayed at 100% until I left on my trip later that same morning. I imagine at the top of the battery the car tries to be smart and not spend much time converting electricity into hot batteries. Would be surprised if the Supercharger can actually get low enough charge rate to come into a soft landing at 100%
 
Hmm...interesting point, and this leads to another question. Say you navigate to a 72 kW urban supercharger near a CCS site. Does the battery get preconditioned to allow it to charge up to 250 kW, or is it only preconditioned to charge at up to 72 kW? Of the "350 kW" Electrify America chargers near me, one has a 72 kW urban SC site near it, and the other has both a 150 kW and 250 kW SC site near it.
Great point, I haven't considered that! I wonder if the Tesla engineers took that into account. No need to cook the battery at high temps, pretending its going to take in 250 kW, if it's only going to actually charge at 72 kW max.

The easiest way to test for this is by someone with a OBD II adapter and the bluetooth app (Scan My Tesla) that shows the realtime metrics from the car. It shows battery temperature, so we can take a look at what degree it maxes out once its done preconditioning. Unfortunately I don't have the OBD II adapter to fit at the port in the back of the center console.
It's already been tested and is in this dedicated thread about that:


And the answer is that it does not take into account at all what level of DC charging it thinks it might get, or even what level of charging it is getting during the charging session itself. The programming is really dumb and simplistic, and the Tesla engineers should have done a better job putting some thought and nuance into that.

The logic is simply set as:
IF DC charging (or preconditioning for that), heat the everlovin' hell out of the battery forever.

They had tested this on pretty low power DC sources, like 20 or 30 kW, and the Teslas heat the &^%$ out of the battery, getting to a temperature FAR higher than they need to, so that as soon as it is unplugged, it fires up the air conditioning cooling full blast to try to get that temperature back down.

It's pretty pathetic that they didn't account for things like that, with 50 kW CHAdeMO connections or 72 kW urban Superchargers that really don't need to go that hot with the incessant heating.
 
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Yes, the CCS spec was just updated earlier this month to 4th edition (to max 800A). See my post below about this, if you want to pay for and read the official CCS spec. But considering it was just ratified this month, I highly doubt any commercially-deployed charging station is following it yet.

Looks like on the EVgo charging screen it shows "Max 950V"/"Max 540A", so EVgo themselves is breaking the CCS spec by providing a more than 500A-capable DCFC 😁. I guess they don't follow the spec (which is 400A btw), and the worst thing that can happen is that they'll get a slap on their hands by the overlords, heh.

This rocks! Did they also up the max voltage to 1250 volts? If so, I can't wait to see megawatt chargers deployed :D

Keith
 
They had tested this on pretty low power DC sources, like 20 or 30 kW, and the Teslas heat the &^%$ out of the battery, getting to a temperature FAR higher than they need to, so that as soon as it is unplugged, it fires up the air conditioning cooling full blast to try to get that temperature back down.
Just to get the entire picture across, the reason the cars turn on the cooling when you unplug is because the charging cycle is over, the batteries have NOT been overheated, but the hot battery is only required when charging, it is non-beneficial afterwards so Tesla cools the non-charging battery.

If you were v3 Supercharging the cooling would have come on DURING the charging as the batteries get VERY hot (145° F) just from the high speed charge. Typically the lower CHAdeMO charge rates means the batteries never get much over 135° and this is maintained during charging. When the charging ends the louvers open and the fans come on until the battery is closer to 125° and there it will sit with the fans off and the louvers closed. It can use that heat again at the next Supercharger down the road so why blow it out?

Heat will cause the death of LiIon batteries, but it also allows for faster charging. All the molecules moving around makes it easier for the electrons to slip into place as the battery charges, especially at the end of charge as there are so few spaces left for them to go. Tesla threads this very carefully by pre-heating and by preserving the heated battery, and then by cooling when the battery is no longer charging to a level the battery will not degrade in.

I does seem silly that your crappy local CHAdeMO that you cannot get 10kWs out of causes the heating cycle to go on, and perhaps if it were more common they might put the effort into tweaking the charging cycle a little for them, but other than wasting a bit of energy I don't see the harm. I hope they work on ADDING the CCS chargers to the NAV database as I would appreciate it actually pre-heating the battery before I arrive at ChargePoint or EA charge stations the way it does for Superchargers.
 
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Have you tried this on a "150kW" charger? What was the difference in charge rate at each SoC? I tried to use my CCS adapter for the first time yesterday (Volta CCS charger at a shopping mall) but the charger was broken, so I couldn't get any data.
I went to two different 150kW EA chargers on my current roadtrip. Each time, I arrived with around 30% SoC. When I plugged in, it maxed out at 139kW. When I plugged in the first time, I was at 38% SoC, and it started at 137kw. The second time, I plugged in at 33%, and it started at 139kW.
 
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...

The logic is simply set as:
IF DC charging (or preconditioning for that), heat the everlovin' hell out of the battery forever.

They had tested this on pretty low power DC sources, like 20 or 30 kW, and the Teslas heat the &^%$ out of the battery, getting to a temperature FAR higher than they need to, so that as soon as it is unplugged, it fires up the air conditioning cooling full blast to try to get that temperature back down.

It's pretty pathetic that they didn't account for things like that, with 50 kW CHAdeMO connections or 72 kW urban Superchargers that really don't need to go that hot with the incessant heating.

Yep. I've seen the car pre-condition when navigating to EVgo stations known in the Tesla navigation to have the integrated Tesla - CHAdeMO adapters. Bjorn also did a video on this where he was using a (IIRC) 15 kW CCS charger and noted it would have been faster to use AC charging.

At the end of the charging session, non-heat pump cars start wastefully cooling the battery down again. Heat pump cars can actually harvest heat from the battery pack to warm the cabin in cool weather.
 
I went to two different 150kW EA chargers on my current roadtrip. Each time, I arrived with around 30% SoC. When I plugged in, it maxed out at 139kW. When I plugged in the first time, I was at 38% SoC, and it started at 137kw. The second time, I plugged in at 33%, and it started at 139kW.
What was the maximum number of amps that charger could deliver according to the nameplate? I took a look at some 150 kW EA chargers yesterday and the nameplates all said up to 900V/500A. Now obviously a 150 kW charger cannot deliver 900V@500A, but it seems like some of them are not limited to 350A. Either that or the nameplates were wrong (but this was every nameplate at a site with about 6 chargers).
 
Just to get the entire picture across, the reason the cars turn on the cooling when you unplug is because the charging cycle is over, the batteries have NOT been overheated, but the hot battery is only required when charging, it is non-beneficial afterwards so Tesla cools the non-charging battery.
No, this is definitely not true. Let me pose a hypothetical question then. What temperature does the battery need to be to receive 20 kW charging power? (That's a rhetorical, because the answer doesn't matter, and I don't expect either of us to know that exactly. But the point is, there should be some number for that power level.)

So it is easily shown that it is far overheating the battery by the simple fact that the cars are programmed to make the battery really really hot only if that 20 kW is coming from a DC source. If that 20 kW is coming from a wall connector providing 240V 80A, the cars use different logic because it's not a DC source, and it heats the battery up a little--only as much as is needed for 20 kW, but not a lot more, like it does in the "DC mode".
 
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No, this is definitely not true. Let me pose a hypothetical question then. What temperature does the battery need to be to receive 20 kW charging power? (That's a rhetorical, because the answer doesn't matter, and I don't expect either of us to know that exactly. But the point is, there should be some number for that power level.)

So it is easily shown that it is far overheating the battery by the simple fact that the cars are programmed to make the battery really really hot only if that 20 kW is coming from a DC source. If that 20 kW is coming from a wall connector providing 240V 80A, the cars use different logic because it's not a DC source, and it heats the battery up a little--only as much as is needed for 20 kW, but not a lot more, like it does in the "DC mode".
Well I do know that when I was charging in my garage at around 12kW, with an ambient temperature of about 60F, the *cooling* system came on. I heard the radiator fans come on and I put my hand in the wheel well area and it was definitely exhausting hot air, not cold air.
 
Well I do know that when I was charging in my garage at around 12kW, with an ambient temperature of about 60F, the *cooling* system came on. I heard the radiator fans come on and I put my hand in the wheel well area and it was definitely exhausting hot air, not cold air.
That's not necessarily cooling the battery, but it's definitely cooling the on-board charger.
 
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What was the maximum number of amps that charger could deliver according to the nameplate? I took a look at some 150 kW EA chargers yesterday and the nameplates all said up to 900V/500A. Now obviously a 150 kW charger cannot deliver 900V@500A, but it seems like some of them are not limited to 350A. Either that or the nameplates were wrong (but this was every nameplate at a site with about 6 chargers).

I think they "down regulate" half of their chargers to 150 KW because the cabinet supplying it has lower capacity, but the dispenser itself would be perfectly fine hooked up to a more powerful charging cabinet. I assume they do this to lower demand charges from the local utility and make the site installation cost less expensive. A power feed that covers two 350 KW chargers and two 150 KW chargers is less expensive to install than one that covers four 350 KW chargers.

Keith
 
Is there any reason to expect that the new S/X would behave differently (better?) than these results?

And is there any reason to expect that charge curve (on any of the cars) would be different than when on a Supercharger?

As discussed earlier in this thread, yes. The S/X have a different battery pack than the 3/Y that has a different voltage profile that will let it charge a bit faster than the 3/Y.

The charge curve on CCS will be different from Superchargers for now because the max current implemented in CCS is 500 Amps, and V3 Superchargers go over 700 amps for a short time at very low battery state of charge. As discussed earlier in this thread the new CCS standard has an 800 amp limit, and when this is implemented (new physical equipment will be required... and a need to buy the new equipment) then the charging curve should be virtually identical to V3 for a Tesla.

Keith