The charger can certainly throttle the charging rate as well.
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Not inherently. Chargers can have power design limitations independent of their current limitations. For example, you are unlikely to be able to pull 450 kW out of a “350 kW” charger at 500A and 900V.
That’s my initial guess as well in this case but it certainly could be from the charger.
None of this was my own words, I was just repeating what was said in the video, right or wrong... He did say that he hated ABB chargers, and preferred the Signet ones, but he said in his area, ABB was usually what they had.
Here's the video. It was actually a Taycan. This link starts where he had the issue. He said it was pushing 170kw, then the charging session halted. When he went to reconnect it would only charge at 50kw. He mentioned he had a similar problem at the previous charging stop with a 150kw ABB unit. If you go to the 29 minute mark, he's at a 350kw unit, and there he had other issues. He tried a few different 350kw units, and none of them would work. As soon as he plugged in, it ramped up to 273kw then the charger bricked itself and refused to charge his car.
Yes, and since the battery packs are higher voltage (at least the Plaid) and the stations are current limited, you get proportionally higher charging power. 110S vs 96S if memory serves me. That's 14.5% more power at the same current.
RichAZ/CapeCod
Member
OK, I'm a dope. Looked back in this thread for a web page in order to order the CSS1 from Korea. Can't locate it. If you have it handy please let me know what it is.
Thanks,
Rich
I did. I charged for a couple minutes at an EA station at 117kW, about 60% SOC. I haven't tried this car at a Supercharger yet, but from my experience with a couple other Teslas, that's power was probably the most the car would take at that SOC.
Jeremy3292
Active Member
Get your Tesla's CCS1 Adapter From Korea!
Nothing beats the convenience of being able to charge your car with a Tesla Supercharger. But there are times when you need to use a non-Tesla charger, and having an adaptor can make things much easier. So, it's excellent news for all Tesla car owners everywhere when the carmaker decided to...
www.harum.io
TunaBug
Member
J1772_201710: SAE Electric Vehicle and Plug in Hybrid Electric Vehicle Conductive Charge Coupler - SAE International
This SAE Standard covers the general physical, electrical, functional and performance requirements to facilitate conductive charging of EV/PHEV vehicles in North America. This document defines a common EV/PHEV and supply equipment vehicle conductive charging method including operational requirements
The SAE J1772 spec has this to say about the DC pins for SAE Combo:
Appendix E, Startup Sequence, Section i:
So it sort of sounds, at least from the J1772 spec that you should design for at least 400 amps continuous, but that for non-continuous use like the adapter in a car or the cable on a charge pedestal are likely to see, you can kind of go nuts as long as it meets the temperature rise limits. There's another couple ISO specs (IIRC? if somebody wants to track them down, let me know and I'll dig up the spec numbers again) that control CCS that I haven't bought, because while I was willing to spend $85 on specs I'll never need in practice, I wasn't quite willing to spend $1200 on them (these other specs are for some reason vastly more expensive).
RichAZ/CapeCod
Member
Thanks! Emailed them.Get your Tesla's CCS1 Adapter From Korea!
Nothing beats the convenience of being able to charge your car with a Tesla Supercharger. But there are times when you need to use a non-Tesla charger, and having an adaptor can make things much easier. So, it's excellent news for all Tesla car owners everywhere when the carmaker decided to...
Rich
kishkaru
Member
IEC_62196 is the overall charging spec, as mentioned in my previous post.
The 1st edition (2003), IEC 62196-1:2003 allowed for max 600V/400A
The 2nd edition (2011), IEC 62196-1:2011 bumped to max 1500V/400A
The 3rd edition (2014), IEC 62196-1:2014 stays max 1500V/400A
Unfortunately, all of the specs are paywalled. Because specs are not free!
So even I'm not sure where this "500A limitation" comes from.
It may be from the CSS connector spec, which is a different one (2014): IEC 62196-3:2014, which came out in conjunction with IEC 62196-1:2014. But it mentions 1500V/250A max for the CCS connector.
... Or everyone may have been just breaking the spec this whole time
There is a new version (2022): IEC 62196-1:2022 which bumps to max 1500V/800A. It was finalized and published just yesterday 5/3/22, and is now the current revision.
This would allow 400V-class cars to charge from 280kW (350V low end) to 360 kW (450V high end). Solves all our problems!
The CCS connector spec is also being updated for 2022 (IEC 62196-3:2022), but currently is a draft to be published later this month 5/20/22.
kishkaru
Member
The J1772 spec you listed is completely different: Its for the J1772 connector.J1772_201710: SAE Electric Vehicle and Plug in Hybrid Electric Vehicle Conductive Charge Coupler - SAE International
This SAE Standard covers the general physical, electrical, functional and performance requirements to facilitate conductive charging of EV/PHEV vehicles in North America. This document defines a common EV/PHEV and supply equipment vehicle conductive charging method including operational requirementswww.sae.org
The SAE J1772 spec has this to say about the DC pins for SAE Combo:
View attachment 800514
Appendix E, Startup Sequence, Section i:
So it sort of sounds, at least from the J1772 spec that you should design for at least 400 amps continuous, but that for non-continuous use like the adapter in a car or the cable on a charge pedestal are likely to see, you can kind of go nuts as long as it meets the temperature rise limits. There's another couple ISO specs (IIRC? if somebody wants to track them down, let me know and I'll dig up the spec numbers again) that control CCS that I haven't bought, because while I was willing to spend $85 on specs I'll never need in practice, I wasn't quite willing to spend $1200 on them (these other specs are for some reason vastly more expensive).
It's possible to DC charge via the J1772 connector as per spec (not to be confused with the CCS connector, which is controlled by the IEC spec I linked above)
However, no commercial vehicles (or charging stations) implemented DCFC via the J1772 connector. See Weber Auto's excellent video about it:
Jeremy3292
Active Member
Wait so you're saying instead of just using the J1772 connector for AC and DC charging, they added two more big connector ports instead to support DC charging? No wonder CCS is a disaster.
The J1772 spec's most current revision includes coverage for the two additional pins for DCFC, and some of their communications, flowing IEC-62196 down into the J1772 spec. You'll note that the numbers I cited were from the section of the J1772 spec covering "DCFC Level 2" which is the one using the IEC-62196-3 spec:
As you note, the IEC specs (and those were the numbers I wasn't thinking of off-hand) are also paywalled, and significantly pricier than the J1772 spec I already bought. I was willing to pay $80ish bucks to cite chapter and verse for internet arguments, but not like $400-600. My guess would be that on close examination, the IEC spec, like the J1772 spec, distinguishes between continuous and non-continuous load in a way that allows exceeding 400V as long as the temperature rise is controlled/limited and the duration is somewhat short, where "somewhat short" has some more reasonable formal definition that encompasses most high-power fast charge sessions.
Jeremy3292
Active Member
Ok so I watched the video and you can only support DC charging up to 48 kW using the J1772 connector. I feel better now lol.
The mistake they made was not using the same pins for DC and split phase AC. Anything that can carry 350-400A DC can carry 80A AC. There is no need to have separate DC and AC pins. Roll the 2 AC pins and 2 DC pins into one and you essentially have the Tesla connector. Of course, this connector can't do 3 phase but neither can J1772. Ideally, they should make a connector with 2 large shared pins for DC+/DC- in DCFC mode and neutral/L1 in split phase and 3 phase AC mode and 2 smaller pins for L2 and L3 used in AC mode only.
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kishkaru
Member
Not to add to the confusion, but Appendix M of the SAE J1772 standard document actually mentions a "level 3" AC charging, which as never implemented. A per wikipedia:
So looks like they spun it off to a separate J3068 spec, which uses the IEC 62196 Type 2 plug in North America, and added 3-phase AC charging. It's already in use in North America by Volvo trucks.
Yay, more standards!
So looks like they spun it off to a separate J3068 spec, which uses the IEC 62196 Type 2 plug in North America, and added 3-phase AC charging. It's already in use in North America by Volvo trucks.
Yay, more standards!
