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Reverse made my car go forward...
- Thread starter superh0
- Start date
TexasTeslaRacing
Member
Friends, this has never happened to me or the other 75 or so Tesla drivers I personally know here in Texas. I'm very skeptical of this claim.
When in Park - lift the stalk UP to go in REVERSE. Push the stalk DOWN to go FORWARD.
I think people get confused by the PRND on the screen and think that they need to to push stalk down one notch to go in reverse.
It might be better if Tesla changed the indicator to RPND instead of PRND. People are used to the mechanical shifters of ICE vehicles and forget that Tesla's are electronic. You get used to it quickly but someone new driving the vehicle could make a mistake, pull the lever down one notch thinking they are putting the car in reverse, look behind them and hit the accelerator, only to find out they put the car in DRIVE and possibly hit something by accident.
I think people get confused by the PRND on the screen and think that they need to to push stalk down one notch to go in reverse.
It might be better if Tesla changed the indicator to RPND instead of PRND. People are used to the mechanical shifters of ICE vehicles and forget that Tesla's are electronic. You get used to it quickly but someone new driving the vehicle could make a mistake, pull the lever down one notch thinking they are putting the car in reverse, look behind them and hit the accelerator, only to find out they put the car in DRIVE and possibly hit something by accident.
So I just signed up for the forum today so I could post that this happened to me too, even though I don't have a Model 3. 
Keep in mind that the moment you touch the throttle you release hill hold (you are always in neutral for a short period of time) and if on a slope or against a bump the car may go in any direction until you give enough throttle.
Turn on creep. On these slight inclines the car will move in the direction of the gear selector and not pass through an unpredictable neutral step.
It is very obvious which direction the car might move on steep slopes. On subtle slopes it’s not and there could be a period of time (parking) so that your muscle memory forgot you had a little stored energy when you “stopped”. It’s one thing to react at a stop light. But in a parking spot it can be disorienting (you need to recalibrate yourself from how the car was left). To put it in reverse and start rolling forward (because, say one wheel is on the crest of a bump or top edge of a depression).
Last edited:
edigest
Member
Well, rats! It isn't just Model 3s. Or Teslas. Had to drive the wife's Lexus today. I was in park and as soon as I changed to reverse, the left turn signal came on. Car wouldn't move. Went back to park and reverse two more times and it still only turned on the left turn signal.
darth_vad3r
Well-Known Sith
Yesterday I pedaled forwards on my bike but it went backwards.
Oh, but seriously, yesterday my Tesla went backwards when I pressed the “gas” after I had finished reversing out of a spot and wanted to move forwards ... but that was because I hadn’t switched it into drive yet. This is what happens when your brain gets used to a pattern... I‘ve been parking by reversing in to a spot for 4 months now, at least twice a day, at home and at work. The one time I didn’t and pulled in, and I messed up momentarily on the way out.
Another brain-training issue is creep.
I blame the historical existence of creep — and training automatic transmission drivers’ brains to use it over many years — for a large number of “pedal confusion” cases. If we went back in time and uninvented automatic transmission with creep, people would get confused way less often today because your brain wouldn’t be use to controlling the start and stop of motion with the same pedal. Well, with the brake pedal anyways. One pedal with regen on accelerator is safer.
1. One pedal driving with regenerative braking: Press to go, release to slow down. Move foot to other pedal to stop quickly. You never slam the same pedal to stop.
2. One pedal driving with DEgenerative braking (aka creep): Release to go, press to slow down, press harder to stop.
(2) trains your brain that sometimes when you are controlling forwards motion (if you are in one-pedal degenerative driving mode) you just press the same pedal harder to stop, and sometimes you have to move your foot to another pedal to stop (if you are in normal accelerator pedal use). This confuses our monkey brains sometimes. We get used to patterns and then sometimes apply the wrong logic and miss a step. Like forgetting to move your foot to a different pedal. Or forgetting to shift gears into out or of reverse like I did. If (2) had never ever existed, we’d only be used to a mode of driving where to slow down while you are controlling acceleration you have to lift your foot to slow down AND move it to another pedal to quickly slow down. Using creep trains your monkey brain for a future pedal confusion incident because sometimes you slow down one way, sometimes another.
Back to this reverse/forwards thing ... a video of a real non-user-error issue would be great. You’d think someone would want to capture it to prove they aren’t going crazy.
Riversurfer
Member
You are correct. I live on a steep incline. When I back out, I apply the brake until “hold” appears on the screen. Drop into Drive, put my foot on the accelerator gently and go.
Just happened to me today. Have almost 5,000 miles on the car so not a complete newbie. Car kept pulling forward into a curb stop. It sure felt like the car was powering forward and not just rolling, but I was so close to the curb stop I was afraid to give it too much throttle each time I tried. Luckily it was low enough to not damage my bumper. It was on a slight downhill. What worked was pressing the brake and throttle together, despite the screen warning, it backed up. Reading this thread, I am considering what some have said about the car rolling, but I did switch to creep mode and that too would creep forward when in reverse. Back home now and seems to reverse just fine on level ground.
darth_vad3r
Well-Known Sith
I regularly park on an incline with the front of the car facing downhill, and reverse up the incline. If I want to inch forwards to adjust my final position I don’t have to shift out of R, I can just let go of the “gas” pedal. If I’m in hold because I pressed the brake, but I want to inch forwards, I can just tap the accelerator to release hold, but not far enough to actually make it give power, and then I let gravity pull me forwards (while still in R). If I go too far I can press the pedal more to let the motor drive me in reverse up the incline.
So I do this little dance with gravity and reverse to fine tune my parking position quite regularly. That sounds like maybe what you are describing. I don’t use creep. Brake plus gas sounds like an old school way to avoid rolling the wrong way on a hill, or like using e-brake with a manual since you don’t have a 3rd foot to use clutch brake and gas
. It does work!I’ve found hill hold to be great and flexible enough to let you roll the other way if you want to, but normally it holds long enough that if you depress the accelerator enough you won’t roll with “wrong way” (either backwards if you are in D going uphill, or forwards if you are in R reversing back up a hill).
I have to agree with another poster recommending creep be turned on.
Federal Register, Volume 68 Issue 94 (Thursday, May 15, 2003) as summarized at Prius links "NHTSA/DOT starter interlock and transmission safety standards NPRM for hybrids, that explains the whole rationale about "creep" force and directional cueing for a driver." Read the section "Safety Importance of Creep Force in Cueing the Driver--Creep Force in Reverse".
I wrote in 2014 about how someone at CES in the i3 test drive line (after their test drive) was surprised and confused by the i3's no creep (can't be turned on) behavior at BMW i3 vs Leaf - Page 3 - My Nissan Leaf Forum.
Disagree with your blaming creep.
Federal Register, Volume 68 Issue 94 (Thursday, May 15, 2003) as summarized at Prius links "NHTSA/DOT starter interlock and transmission safety standards NPRM for hybrids, that explains the whole rationale about "creep" force and directional cueing for a driver." Read the section "Safety Importance of Creep Force in Cueing the Driver--Creep Force in Reverse".
I wrote in 2014 about how someone at CES in the i3 test drive line (after their test drive) was surprised and confused by the i3's no creep (can't be turned on) behavior at BMW i3 vs Leaf - Page 3 - My Nissan Leaf Forum.
darth_vad3r
Well-Known Sith
Simple scenario. Driver loses consciousness while stopped on a flat surface (say first in line at a red light) and their foot slips off the brake. Should the car apply torque and drive into the intersection?
No, but it could slip and apply pressure to the accelerator, as well.
I guess you didn't read the passage I pointed you to yet. I'll quote the relevant parts:
darth_vad3r
Well-Known Sith
Thanks for that link. They agree with me and also blame the historical existence of creep and training our monkey brains:
“From years of driving ICE-powered automatic transmission vehicles,
drivers are familiar with cues in the direction of travel indicated by
creep force.”
So if we never had creep, people wouldn’t be used to it, and when you messed up you wouldn’t press the same pedal to stop. Simple.
I never drove an automatic. When I screw up I let go of the pedal and press the other one. I don’t press the same one harder. People used to creep do that.
It’s better to teach your kids to drive an EV with no creep from the get go, they’ll never dangerously stomp down the same pedal when they go the “wrong way”. Why would they do that? It makes no sense, everyone knows you lift your foot to slow down, then move it left to press the brake. Everyone who’s never used creep anyways. Unfortunately lots of people have used creep. That’s too bad.
Maybe the next generation will be better. The EV creep-less generation.
darth_vad3r
Well-Known Sith
That’s a second event that would need to occur to cause the tragedy. With creep it just has to slip off the brake and you are driving into the intersection. A 2000 lb steel death machine on wheels shouldn’t move until you consciously tell it to move. Fail safe. Not fail unsafe.
Oh no, I read that. And you conveniently snipped the quote ONE sentence early before the sentence I quoted that supports my point.
They are saying the cue helps, but if you make a mistake and you never had creep you correct your mistake correctly. Only if you are used to creep do you correct your mistake incorrectly, by pressing down on the gas MORE to stop.
Never drove an automatic? Not even once? It's difficult to even find a rental car in the US w/stick shift now.
And, in the US, very few consumer automobile models are left that are available (as new vehicles) w/stick. About the only ones are certain sports/performance cars. So, given this and the overwhelming majority of consumer automobiles being sold in the US have automatics or ones that essentially function like automatics (probably 94+%), it's probably better to stick w/behavior the the vast majority of drivers (in the US) are familiar with.
I've never owned a non-"automatic" vehicle. I can drive stick, but very poorly.
edit: The disappearing stick shift: Less than 3% of cars sold in the U.S. have manual transmissions from 2016 says less than 3% w/manual transmissions.
darth_vad3r
Well-Known Sith
RPND would be the labels I think he is suggesting. The P isn’t a position on the stalk, it’s a separate button. I personally don’t think P should be in the list anyways since it’s a separate button. The stalk rotation is is counter clockwise for R, and clockwise for D. Oh, I see his point. Maybe just put a temporary P above the N while you are in Park. The Tesla stalk is a strange one because it doesn’t stay in fixed positions but always returns to centre.
On an old school stalk, PRND and in park, you go clockwise 3 positions to get to D, and also clockwise but only one position to get to R ... I think that was his point. Labelling PRND might cue people to go clockwise to get to R. I personally never look at those labels and just have the muscle memory of up for R, Down for D.
darth_vad3r
Well-Known Sith
I never drove an automatic as my vehicle, my spouse‘s vehicle, or my parents’ vehicles. We’ve only ever all owned manuals, and now an EV which I don’t consider automatic, but 1-gear manual
Sure, out of 10,000+ times driving I may have driven a rental car a dozen times total. And hated every minute of it. Not knowing what to do with left foot, accidentally pressing massive brake pedal with left foot, hating that the car creeps on you as soon as you lift foot off brake, not being able to gear down and engine brake and having to use the brakes so much. Horrible. And they charge more money for them! LOL, so I got a discount every time I bought a manual
darth_vad3r
Well-Known Sith
“Edmunds senior analyst Ivan Drury said fewer than 3% of current U.S. car sales are manual vehicles — compared with 80% in some European and Asian countries”
Would be really interesting to hear about pedal confusion and sudden acceleration incidence rates in those countries with 80% or more people driving manual.
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