Rivian Vs Tesla

[T3slaOwner]

Life, as we know it, is possible without the Tesla SC network (though building out the SC network is as good a proof of Musk's genius as I can think of).

Does his consistently failed proclamations Tesla will double the network make him a half-wit?

Musk has said that the SC network will never be a profit center for Tesla and I believe that.

Then I have some swamp land in Florida I'd like to sell you. Musk is literally the least reliable source of predictions related to Tesla around. I supposed we are going to see a doubling of the Supercharger network this year too?

There is the very real factor that Musk may not be running Tesla indefinitely. It seems every couple of months a new scandal shows up where Trump has done something wrong that won't set well with the SEC potentially resulting in his removal from any office with Tesla.

Finally there is the very real possibility that Tesla may not survive so many years and will be taken over which will almost certainly result in the Supercharging network being sold off.

No, given all the facts, it is not at all certain that Tesla will even have a Supercharger network much less that it will remain reasonably priced.

They say it is designed for that and it is marketed for that but the market is really clearly the weekend urban cowboy. None the less the answer to the question is "anywhere in the boonies where you can plug it in". This, of course, includes any campground that has electric service for RV's.

Which are very poor charging locations and are actually few and far between. Unless you are staying at the camping site overnight you will need to sit for HOURS doing not much else than charging. Yes, this will be a popular feature of EVs, exploring the walking area around camp grounds while waiting for your charge.

Someone posted on another forum that he'd just throw his generator and a few jerry cans in the bed and recharge with those. I laughed at first of course but then ran some numbers. If you are camping, or rather glamping, for a week and run the generator for a couple of hours each evening that's sufficient to recharge a Rivian sufficiently to get you back to a more robust charging station.

A couple of hours on even a 7.5 kW generator will get you maybe 40 miles. I guess that might do on the east coast. In a real wilderness you would still be hurting. I expect you would need to get real familiar with level 2 charging.

If Scaringe is smart (and I think the fact that he has brought the company to the point where it is today is pretty solid evidence that he is) Rivian will make some sort of subsidized charging available and will probably install some stations in popular but remote places. It as necessary for Rivian's marketing as it was for Tesla's that something like this be done.

"Some sort of subsidized charging"...? That sounds like a euphemism for a Supercharger network. Great, so he just needs another 4 billion dollars and another four years.

"Popular but remote" would be a token effort. Once you use the term "remote" you are addressing 90% of the country that Tesla has not addressed with Superchargers. Tesla (or more accurately Musk) refers to 95% of the population being within charging distance of the network, but that's largely BS because it is not a useful metric for someone to be able to charge, drive home and drive back to the charger. Turn that on it's head and I'd bet you would find 95% of the US population is too far from a Supercharger to make use of one in their routine use of an EV.

That means Rivian can't afford to populate the "remote places" with any meaningful number of Rivianchargers.

 

[acoste]

So once EVs become more common, EA will be even worse unless you can see (in real time) how they are being used.
Not fun driving station to station looking for an opening or waiting in line.

The system is there, up to car makers if they use it. Implemented and works well in Mercedes EQC

How will the service partners feel about OTA updates? Dealers classically want the owner to "bring it in".

Things change over time. They are going to figure it out.

With existing dealer networks clearly not interesting in selling their own brand of EVs, I don't think servicing another brand w/o selling it will be on the top of their list.

Dealers get their many through servicing, not selling. So I guess the other way around.

 

[T3slaOwner]

The system is there, up to car makers if they use it. Implemented and works well in Mercedes EQC



Things change over time. They are going to figure it out.



Dealers get their many through servicing, not selling. So I guess the other way around.

They make plenty of money selling cars or they would just be service centers. The issue with servicing other brands is inventorying all the parts. I'm currently looking for a tail gate stay cable for my Toyota and they aren't in stock and no one seems to know what length is needed for my truck. Toyota charge 2.5 times what everyone else does, so clearly money is being made there too.

 

[ajdelange]

There is the very real factor that Musk may not be running Tesla indefinitely. It seems every couple of months a new scandal shows up where Trump has done something wrong that won't set well with the SEC potentially resulting in his removal from any office with Tesla.

.....

No, given all the facts, it is not at all certain that Tesla will even have a Supercharger network much less that it will remain reasonably priced.

Lithium has uses beyond battery electrodes.

 

[acoste]

They make plenty of money selling cars or they would just be service centers. The issue with servicing other brands is inventorying all the parts. I'm currently looking for a tail gate stay cable for my Toyota and they aren't in stock and no one seems to know what length is needed for my truck. Toyota charge 2.5 times what everyone else does, so clearly money is being made there too.

This is Autonation in 2018:

 

[T3slaOwner]

This is Autonation in 2018:

View attachment 458438

You can knock $500 off the service portion. I disputed the charge on my credit card. They charged me $500 to replace a fuse and never fixed the reason I brought the car in for. The credit card company has asked them for more info.

 

[ajdelange]

So once EVs become more common, EA will be even worse unless you can see (in real time) how they are being used.
Not fun driving station to station looking for an opening or waiting in line.

I gather from this that your criterion for "bad" is the length of time you have to spend on queue. Clearly the ratio of EVs to working chargers has a direct bearing on this. But the question wasn't whether the addition of Rivian vehicles to the EV fleet would make the overall charging situation better or worse. It was how people would charge them. The answer is the EA, Circuit Electrique, EvGO... network. It's out there today and it is practically usable by everyone out there who owns an EV other than a Tesla.

When the Rivians appear they will be, at first at least, a tiny fraction of the demand for those chargers. The problem the EA network faces right now is availability - not the number of vehicles trying to use them. If you look at plugshare it seems that most of their stations are suffereing from some sort of problems with this.

Note: their app shows availability in real time.

 

[T3slaOwner]

I really wish people would not talk about the ancient level 3 charging network as if it had some relevance to charging EVs going forward. The majority of non-tesla level 2 charging is 50 kW which takes hours when trip charging. Heck, in mph that's only around twice the speed of driving on the trip. So for every hour spend driving you'd still need to spend half an hour charging. An 8 hour driving day would become 12 hours at best.

Factor in that these chargers are often singles or at best doubles and now charging congestion takes on a whole new meaning.

I am not presently aware of any faster chargers than the EA network. If they are out there, they are few and far between. So for any real purposes, there is the Tesla Supercharger network and since they typically have only one Chademo charger per station, the EA CCS network which Teslas can't use.

I checked plugshare which I can't seem to get a number when it goes above 250, but for a more local region the number of available CCS and Chademo stations is 94 at 50 kW or higher. Bump that up to 70 kW and it drops to 10. Remove EA from the list and it drops to zero!

So as I said, on trips there's no real point in considering anything other than EA and Tesla Superchargers other than for overnight charging, at least in the US.

 

[AndreyATC]

I love Rivian. It was pretty much the only reason i went NY car show earlier this year.
I got very excited and thought it would be my next car (SUV)
Well, spec is crazy good and it looks awesome.
So i started to picture my self using it in our EV-only household, commuting and taking road trips with 4 kids.
Here is what kind of made me to trade my P90D to another X "raven"
Rivian, while looking like a bigger SUV, will not fit the same amount of luggage we brought to last Florida trip
I had 2 large suitcases and full-size stroller (Orbit G3), along with bunch of other bulky items
Rivian's trunk is only single "deck" and that's all you have.
With 3-rd row up, it barely fits anything, while X hold 2 large cases vertically side-by-side
Of course, the frunk is bigger on the Rivian, but it doesnt offset the deficit of the rear
Charging:
I'm sure there are plenty of stations for Rivian, but you cannot simply beat the Supercharger network.
I no longer plan my trips, i just do what my car says. Very simple.
Efficiency:
I dont think you can even come close to new "raven", no matter what 7-seater you come up with
It's absolutely insane what this new drive train is
I'm at least 25% more efficient commuting vs older P90D, and that's with heavier 100kw pack

 

[ajdelange]

Charging:
I'm sure there are plenty of stations for Rivian, but you cannot simply beat the Supercharger network.

I think you may have meant to say you simply cannot beat the SC network but either way it's true. At one time that was reason for me to think that I would probably ask for my 1K back eventually but experimenting with going off the SC network was enough to convince me that lack of access to the Tesla net was not really the problem I thought it would be.

I no longer plan my trips, i just do what my car says. Very simple.

I am delighted to see that at least one other Tesla driver realizes that the car can be operated that way!

Efficiency:
I dont think you can even come close to new "raven", no matter what 7-seater you come up with
It's absolutely insane what this new drive train is
I'm at least 25% more efficient commuting vs older P90D, and that's with heavier 100kw pack

Given that IM's are about 90% efficient and that the SRPM's are only a few percent more efficient than that and that only 1 of the motors has been switched to an SRPM I doubt that you are really seeing 25% improvement consistently. The picture shows 241 Wh/mi on a 244.3 mi trip which is certainly impressive but that implies, with the approximately 98 kWh battery capacity, a range of 406 miles which I agree is possible (slow driving, tail wind, optimum temperature...) but not to be expected under normal circumstances for if it were Tesla would advertise such a range. But your point is that this is much more efficient than Rivian claims. They say "over 400 miles" on a 180 kWh battery. That works out to 450 Wh/mi. I realize about 300 with my (non Raven) X. Thus clearly if efficiency is a big consideration Rivian is not a good choice. OTOH I get most of my electricity from solar and 90% of my charging is done at home so efficiency isn't a big consideration.

Thanks very much for your post. It is so much more informative to see what potential customers are actually thinking than wild speculations as to the probable success of Rivian based on how a service center may feel about OTA firmware pushes.

 

[AndreyATC]

Picture above is my very first miles on this X
It consist of round-trips only drives:
1. Airport, highway normal speed + heavy traffic
2. normal commute for 4 days (35-55mph zones 50/50)

My average commute whm used to be 320 at best

 

[ajdelange]

The fact that you used to get 320 says you are a pretty conservative driver. You should definitely see an improvement with the Raven but don't expect to see 244 long term. By the specs the raven is 10% more efficient than the previous X's. This suggests that you will see an average consumption of 0.9*320 = 288 Wh/mi. But you will see what you will see. Important thing is to enjoy the car.

 

[AndreyATC]

320 was the best number commuting vs 240 with raven
My all-time average was 375 for the entire 3-yr ownership
I'm hopping to see 320 as my all-time agv on raven

 

[Blup85]

320 was the best number commuting vs 240 with raven
My all-time average was 375 for the entire 3-yr ownership
I'm hopping to see 320 as my all-time agv on raven

I test drove a Raven X LR with 20" tires and was "Goosing" prettyhard for about 7 or 8 miles. I was suprized to see a 300ish watts/mile on the display. If I drove my p85+ like that I would see 400's easily. It was pretty impressive. Cant wait for the Ravens to get in my price range, but then Tesla will come out with a 130d and I'll want that

 

[Daisame]

I am just happy for all the competition in the marketplace. More EV manufacturers, the better. The more it is done, the better they will get and the cheaper and more efficient too. It will drive all sorts of EV'ish innovations, like more and better infrastructure, battery technologies, etc.

I think there is going to be plenty of demand for everyone. While the US may be sluggish right now on EV tech, much of the rest of the industrialized world is pushing harder. Cannot wait to see what new and interesting things get into EVs!

 

[JohnSnowNW]

The concept of a "Tesla-killer" is a fabrication of the media, and used solely to generate clicks. Rivian will no more take out Tesla than Ford has taken out Chevy.

The idea that any one company can take out Tesla by entering into a market where BEVs only have 2% share, but guaranteed exponential growth, is just completely ridiculous.

 

[Daisame]

The concept of a "Tesla-killer" is a fabrication of the media, and used solely to generate clicks. Rivian will no more take out Tesla than Ford has taken out Chevy.

The idea that any one company can take out Tesla by entering into a market where BEVs only have 2% share, but guaranteed exponential growth, is just completely ridiculous.

I get your point. But it is meant as you said as click generator. Tesla has basically set the bar, which is why everyone is compared to them. So it is understandable to use the phrase as a way to imply that one product may have raised that bar again. I don't take it so literally as something that will somehow drive (no pun intended) Tesla to failure.

 

[Feathermerchan]

For those that think the Rivian will have little effect on EA etc charging availability, consider that each truck can have a 180 kWh battery. That's like 2 or 3 other EVs. so if they are popular, yes it will have an effect.

 

[T3slaOwner]

The fact that you used to get 320 says you are a pretty conservative driver. You should definitely see an improvement with the Raven but don't expect to see 244 long term. By the specs the raven is 10% more efficient than the previous X's. This suggests that you will see an average consumption of 0.9*320 = 288 Wh/mi. But you will see what you will see. Important thing is to enjoy the car.

Which mostly means pray that nothing breaks or becomes intermittent. I dropped my car off for multiple issues that they won't fix because they are intermittent and they don't see them. There is some irony in the fact that the loaner cars are often not in the best condition. This one seems to have an overly soft feel to the brake pedal and the windows are always dirty on the inside and often on the outside as well. Not only do they not clean your car before returning it, they don't even clean their own cars. Oh, yeah, when using the windshield washer I noticed the wiper blades are worn enough to not work properly. Really Tesla???

 

[acoste]

For those that think the Rivian will have little effect on EA etc charging availability, consider that each truck can have a 180 kWh battery. That's like 2 or 3 other EVs. so if they are popular, yes it will have an effect.

Charging time doesn't increase with that. It is the charge power / battery capacity that is the limiting factor as long as the charger is fast enough (350kW good enough to charge 180kWh from 5% to 90% in 40 min).