Roadster 3.0

[wiztecy]

As you say they are gone, so what is Tesla supposed to do, not do the upgrade?

I didn't say anything about not doing an upgrade or a series of upgrade(s), I'm saying its more difficult with newbies and the change in working environments where there's pressure to get something out right. I'm always a person who prefers a veteran over a newbie. And what I was saying is based upon experience, that Tesla has lost the Roadster expertise. Menlo Park where the Roadster was birthed and built is not the same, its been scattered, spread and lost. The place where it was all hand built. That's been traded off to robots. But with higher numbers of production and ability to scale that's bound to happen and can be a positive thing.

Not exactly sure what you are trying to say here, but the people at your local service center are not the ones doing this upgrade design. My guess is JB Straubel was very much involved, and he should know quite a bit about the Roadster design, as should Elon. Nothing that is being done is all that complicated anyway.

Anything can be outsourced and it has the ability to turn to crap very fast based upon egos. I've worked on products that outsourced, egos flared and junk was produced based upon the outsourced leader. Unless its managed properly I don't expect much unless there's a name attached to the outsource company where $'s will cost them if not done right.

My point is that internally Tesla does not have the same Mojo for the Roadster and what's going into it. I'd rather recruit ex-Tesla employees / Veterans who have the passion and love for what they created than some outsourced company or newbie.

 

[bonnie]

I disagree on both.

Even though some signaling, high power switches and development engineering costs may be quite high, the added value of having Supercharging capabilities in the Roadster is unmatchable by any other upgrade. By far.

HPWC adapters from Henry are only valid in the US and UK. There are many Roadsters outside this region. One phase high power chargers are very rare in Europe.

Who really wants to drive 400 miles in the Roadster non-stop? It is much more convenient to be able to drive 200 SC and come back (or continue...)

You are right on DoD being easier on the cells, but just to resume what I meant in a question:

Given the same motor power, wouldn't you take a 60kWh with SC over a 85kWh without SC?

You can disagree with Tesla's decision to offer a pack with greater range, but deciding what you'd rather have is kind of a pointless exercise. You may feel it wouldn't be that much of their time or money to offer supercharging, but that's not a decision on the table. If you bought your Roadster thinking someday that would happen, I'm sorry ... Elon has already addressed that and it's not something that is being worked on. The market just isn't there.

- - - Updated - - -

Anything can be outsourced and it has the ability to turn to crap very fast based upon egos. I've worked on products that outsourced, egos flared and junk was produced based upon the outsourced leader. Unless its managed properly I don't expect much unless there's a name attached to the outsource company where $'s will cost them if not done right.

My point is that internally Tesla does not have the same Mojo for the Roadster and what's going into it. I'd rather recruit ex-Tesla employees / Veterans who have the passion and love for what they created than some outsourced company or newbie.

A lot of Roadster engineers with the expertise you're talking about are at Tesla & still have the passion and love for all things Roadster. I'm not sure why you think they're gone.

 

[Yoda101]

I agree with you completely - they would have moved to senior position to influence and guide new personnell and R&D.

A lot of Roadster engineers with the expertise you're talking about are at Tesla & still have the passion and love for all things Roadster. I'm not sure why you think they're gone.

 

[ChadS]

Back when we all assumed the "400 miles" was to be obtained solely by a large pack upgrade with fancy new cells, the big open question was how much it was going to cost to stuff a bunch of those cutting-edge cells in there. And related pricing issues - like will Tesla subsidize the price, do people that pre-purchased a battery replacement get all the new miles or do they have to pay extra to unlock the whole pack, etc.

While there is still uncertainty about just which cells will be used, it doesn't look like they will be cutting-edge, so they will likely not be excessively expensive. In fact I really liked the speculation that perhaps they will use Model S cells that don't test to spec - that could resolve both cost and availability issues, given that Tesla is currently cell-constrained on the Model S. They would be using a near waste-product to build these batteries, which could make them really cheap. The situation is probably not THAT good, but maybe our worries about pricing were not necessary.

So people that pre-purchased can get an upgrade without paying any extra. People that have a problem and need to buy a new battery now don't have to pay too much and they get an upgrade too so they are less displeased about their old pack failing. In fact it could possibly be cheap enough people will upgrade just because. And who knows, with the lower capacity than we assumed, maybe (? I am stretching here) it will be slightly lighter than the current pack too. (I had long assumed any replacement pack would likely be slightly cheaper, slightly lighter, and have slightly more range. This is a somewhat larger range bump than I had assumed, and of course we're still waiting to see on the price and weight).

The aero and wheel/brake pieces are going above and beyond; as has been noted, Tesla wasn't obligated to do those like they were obligated to provide replacement packs. Of course like any company there is a profit motive too (and mission; a "400-mile" vehicle looks great to the masses, at least if it can do it at reasonable speeds - still waiting to see on that too, but the math sounds tough), but still it is fantastic that they are doing something to improve the Roadster. I doubt I'll purchase a battery or new tires until I need some anyway; but when I do is it GREAT to know that these options will be available. As for the aero bits, of course it depends on appearance and price...but if it looks OK and is not too much, I may do it not for more range - the Roadster already has more than I need given that I also have a Model S - but so I can have the most efficient car on the road (I think a couple of the smaller EVs may edge out the Roadster now; I haven't looked at the numbers for a while - of course city/hwy will matter). What an excuse to keep the Roadster rather than buying something more practical.

As for the tires, note that using low-grip tires is the easiest and cheapest way to get low rolling resistance, but not the only way - over the past few years some tire companies have been working on lowering rolling resistance without sacrificing performance. I suspect Tesla is aware of the various tradeoffs and any tires they recommend will have appropriate grip for the car. Though they may well only be summer tires, or something like that, so they still may not work for everybody.

 

[Tasdevil]

Airport to airport is 390 miles

 

[Jackyche]

I'm guessing the upgrades will be a la carte because of how picky the 1.5's are in regards to tires. Without the learning feature on 1.5, anyone know of any tires that will not trigger traction control that's also low rolling resistance?

 

[Raffy.Roma]

I disagree on both.

Even though some signaling, high power switches and development engineering costs may be quite high, the added value of having Supercharging capabilities in the Roadster is unmatchable by any other upgrade. By far.

HPWC adapters from Henry are only valid in the US and UK. There are many Roadsters outside this region. One phase high power chargers are very rare in Europe.

Who really wants to drive 400 miles in the Roadster non-stop? It is much more convenient to be able to drive 200 SC and come back (or continue...)

Maybe it's because you are new to TMC and for this reason don't know, but there has been a long debate on TMC about Supercharging for the Roadster and it's almost sure that Supercharging will not be allowed for the Roadster. But to me the 3.0 upgrade for the Roadster is great also without Supercharging.

 

[GVTesla]

First and foremost, I am glad that Tesla decided to work on an upgrade like this.

Second, I'm anxious to hear more, the details, the release date, etc. I'd be interested in probably all three upgrades, with only a small eyebrow-raise for new tires. Also keeping the yoko's and a nice set of winter tires as well seems to be be wise too.

Guessing that with the aero upgrade, lower resistance brakes and new battery pack, the roadster should be able to do 350 miles without compromising on the feel with those nice sticky yoko's?

 

[djp]

I'm extremely impressed with what Tesla has done with the upgrades, the aero work and wheel changes have gone beyond my expectations and I really appreciate their continued support for the Roadster.

That said, this looks like an expensive upgrade, so an open discussion on the limitations, trade offs, relative merits and technical design would be extremely valuable and is exactly what I expect out of TMC. This thread would get boring quick if it was just a list of thank you's.

 

[bonnie]

Back when we all assumed the "400 miles" was to be obtained solely by a large pack upgrade with fancy new cells, the big open question was how much it was going to cost to stuff a bunch of those cutting-edge cells in there. And related pricing issues - like will Tesla subsidize the price, do people that pre-purchased a battery replacement get all the new miles or do they have to pay extra to unlock the whole pack, etc.

While there is still uncertainty about just which cells will be used, it doesn't look like they will be cutting-edge, so they will likely not be excessively expensive. In fact I really liked the speculation that perhaps they will use Model S cells that don't test to spec - that could resolve both cost and availability issues, given that Tesla is currently cell-constrained on the Model S. They would be using a near waste-product to build these batteries, which could make them really cheap. The situation is probably not THAT good, but maybe our worries about pricing were not necessary.

So people that pre-purchased can get an upgrade without paying any extra. People that have a problem and need to buy a new battery now don't have to pay too much and they get an upgrade too so they are less displeased about their old pack failing. In fact it could possibly be cheap enough people will upgrade just because. And who knows, with the lower capacity than we assumed, maybe (? I am stretching here) it will be slightly lighter than the current pack too. (I had long assumed any replacement pack would likely be slightly cheaper, slightly lighter, and have slightly more range. This is a somewhat larger range bump than I had assumed, and of course we're still waiting to see on the price and weight).

The aero and wheel/brake pieces are going above and beyond; as has been noted, Tesla wasn't obligated to do those like they were obligated to provide replacement packs. Of course like any company there is a profit motive too (and mission; a "400-mile" vehicle looks great to the masses, at least if it can do it at reasonable speeds - still waiting to see on that too, but the math sounds tough), but still it is fantastic that they are doing something to improve the Roadster. I doubt I'll purchase a battery or new tires until I need some anyway; but when I do is it GREAT to know that these options will be available. As for the aero bits, of course it depends on appearance and price...but if it looks OK and is not too much, I may do it not for more range - the Roadster already has more than I need given that I also have a Model S - but so I can have the most efficient car on the road (I think a couple of the smaller EVs may edge out the Roadster now; I haven't looked at the numbers for a while - of course city/hwy will matter). What an excuse to keep the Roadster rather than buying something more practical.

As for the tires, note that using low-grip tires is the easiest and cheapest way to get low rolling resistance, but not the only way - over the past few years some tire companies have been working on lowering rolling resistance without sacrificing performance. I suspect Tesla is aware of the various tradeoffs and any tires they recommend will have appropriate grip for the car. Though they may well only be summer tires, or something like that, so they still may not work for everybody.

+1, couldn't agree more with this assessment. Thanks (as usual), Chad.

 

[Al Sherman]

For me, the exciting part of this news is that Tesla is making progress on delivering new battery packs for the Roadster. I'm hoping that we will soon have the details on pricing and availability so that we all know that the cars we love won't become bricks when our current battery packs reach end of life.

It's nice that the new battery packs have more range, but that's really not important to me, and I'm hoping they won't be prohibitively expensive as a result. Before the Roadster entered production, we were told to expect that by the time we needed new packs, batteries would be better and cheaper. I hope they are able to deliver on both parts of that.

^^^This. :smile: We cannot be stopped!

 

[JRP3]

Anything can be outsourced and it has the ability to turn to crap very fast based upon egos. I've worked on products that outsourced, egos flared and junk was produced based upon the outsourced leader. Unless its managed properly I don't expect much unless there's a name attached to the outsource company where $'s will cost them if not done right.

My point is that internally Tesla does not have the same Mojo for the Roadster and what's going into it. I'd rather recruit ex-Tesla employees / Veterans who have the passion and love for what they created than some outsourced company or newbie.

You're clearly creating a scenario in your head which you have no idea is accurate, and is in fact contrary to the reality that this is of course being designed in house, by Tesla, with some of the original people involved. There is no special Roadster "Mojo" needed to make aerodynamic and rolling resistance improvements or to build a pack using more energy dense cells, it's just physics and mechanics. You've basically come up with a complete, negative, fantasy about how this upgrade is being designed and implemented, and you are pretending only a few people who are no longer with Tesla know how to do it. That's simply wrong on all counts.

 

[supersnoop]

I'll be curious to see the pricing. I imagine I'll get a set of wheels and tires to swap when I need the extra range, but I doubt I'll use them all the time.

 

[Fabrizio]

When people have asked me what a replacement Roadster battery costs, they gasp when I tell them $40K. But I then elaborate that when it comes time to replace the battery, the Roadster should have over 150,000 miles, at which point the range may not get me to work and back in normal mode with A/C on during a Phoenix, AZ summer (in theory). When an ICE vehicle reaches 150,000 miles, I'd be replacing the entire car at that point. But with my Roadster, I would replace the battery at a lower price than an entirely new one.

In essence, if the cost of the 3.0 upgrade is too high for me to buy before my battery needs replacing, I will wait until such time as my battery no longer has the range I need to commute to work and back. But if the price is low enough, I might go for it sooner rather than later.

 

[JRP3]

While there is still uncertainty about just which cells will be used, it doesn't look like they will be cutting-edge, so they will likely not be excessively expensive. In fact I really liked the speculation that perhaps they will use Model S cells that don't test to spec - that could resolve both cost and availability issues, given that Tesla is currently cell-constrained on the Model S. They would be using a near waste-product to build these batteries, which could make them really cheap.

From the Tesla blog:

We have identified a new cell that has 31% more energy than the original Roadster cell. Using this new cell we have created a battery pack that delivers roughly 70kWh in the same package as the original battery.

 

[techmaven]

I think the comment on "no Supercharging" is from the context of the old (current) Roadster battery pack. Put in enough Model S cells and its a new scenario.

Given everything going on at Tesla, I would guess that one of the primary constraints of the this upgrade project is engineering time. Therefore, the easiest thing would be to use as many of the existing Model S components as possible. Model S cells, BMS, and charge port are all well sorted out to work together. Thereby increasing the possibility of Supercharging. Of course, it could all hinge on the retrofit labor costs. Also, I suspect that owners can still help direct the final details of what they offer so I would encourage those interested to write to Tesla.

 

[Jackyche]

I had a car with 175k miles. I assure you I didn't need to replace the entire car. In fact, I didn't need to replace anything, certainly not the engine.

My current ICE has 130k miles and drives beautiful. Replacing engine and transmission would not be $40k.

So far, Tesla's have not proven to have lower maintenance cost of ownership. I've never had to pay $700 per year on maintenance on any car (the Mercedes came close, Japanese cars were cheap). That's a discussion for another thread.

But if battery replacement continues to be astronomical, that's going to be a problem going forward.

I sincerely hope the new stuff won't be 40k, because it just won't be worth it for 95% of the owners.

When people have asked me what a replacement Roadster battery costs, they gasp when I tell them $40K. But I then elaborate that when it comes time to replace the battery, the Roadster should have over 150,000 miles, at which point the range may not get me to work and back in normal mode with A/C on during a Phoenix, AZ summer (in theory). When an ICE vehicle reaches 150,000 miles, I'd be replacing the entire car at that point. But with my Roadster, I would replace the battery at a lower price than an entirely new one.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Keep in mind this is an upgrade and not just a refurbished pack (as with an replacement ICE analogy). I don't think there's precedence for any automaker to offer an upgraded ICE for an older model car.

And given the low volumes (think Ferrari volumes, not Mercedes), the overhead costs are probably quite high, so expectations should be tempered by that.

 

[Jackyche]

Oh I'm quite appreciative of tesla offering an upgraded pack. Very appreciative.

I'll reserve my whining or kowtowing until actual pricing is announced.

 

[bluenation]

i think by now, tesla has a storied history of....being quite optimistic with their range estimates. (not to mention timelines, price points...). So, quite similar to ICE companies.

a smart consumer would take "POSSIBLY OVER 400 MILES!!!" claims to really mean approx 300 miles. Take off 25%.

And so forth with the S and X. And any other EV.

and of course, gas mileage for ICE cars too.