Robert Llewellyn's Fully Charged

[stopcrazypp]

Tangential question: I see H2 being dismissed here because of difficulties fuelling the vehicle (both fuelling the vehicle, and storing H2 at the service station too). Why is H2 harder to refuel than LPG? I have never driven LPG, but looking at a map there are plenty of conventional petrol stations around here that also have LPG available - many more than decent electric charging locations, let alone superchargers!

EDIT: (i.e. I had, naively, assumed that H2 distribution would be as easy to add to existing service stations as LPG clearly has been)

That is one of the most common misconceptions of H2 distribution and also why in surveys it appeals to so much people, but once people find out what is actually involved the story changes completely. The LPG tanks are only 100-200 psi and also the LPG (liquefied petroleum gas) as implied by the name is in liquid form meaning the storage and transfer of it is only moderately more difficult than gasoline.
Thus a typical LPG small station retrofit that can serve 30 cars per day will cost $45,000–$60,000.
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/uploads/publication/propane_costs.pdf

On the other hand, hydrogen tanks in the cars must be compressed to 5000-10,000 psi to have practical range (and it is in gaseous form). And given hydrogen is odorless, colorless, and readily reacts, the station design is more strict (empty area near equipment and also the canopies must be designed so hydrogen can't be trapped under it).
To retrofit existing service stations for hydrogen has cost us on average more than $1.6 million in grant money each (and that is only part of the cost, as the government share up to 70%, so actual cost is at least $2.2 million each). And these are typically 100kg/day stations, which serve 20-25 cars per day.
http://insideevs.com/california-app...ng-stations-2-8-million-ev-charging-stations/

Of course the hydrogen backers always sweep that under the rug and want to make it seem as easy as switching out a few gasoline pumps.

The production complexities and fuel cost are also a whole other story:
LPG costs less than $4 per gge (gasoline gallon equivalent; actual price $3 per gallon). And this is while the USA doesn't have very cheap LPG prices (our CNG prices are actually the cheapest source, only a little more than $2 per gge)
Hydrogen costs $15 per kg (gge).

 

[Yggdrasill]

Tangential question: I see H2 being dismissed here because of difficulties fuelling the vehicle (both fuelling the vehicle, and storing H2 at the service station too). Why is H2 harder to refuel than LPG? I have never driven LPG, but looking at a map there are plenty of conventional petrol stations around here that also have LPG available - many more than decent electric charging locations, let alone superchargers!

EDIT: (i.e. I had, naively, assumed that H2 distribution would be as easy to add to existing service stations as LPG clearly has been)

LPG is easy to deal with. LPG is a liquid at 2 bar pressure at room temperature, or at -6C/20F. Hydrogen on the other hand can't become a liquid at room temperature and becomes a liquid at -252C/-422F. Usually hydrogen is stored at 200-700 bar, which allows for sufficient energy density (594-2000 Wh/l). This is extremely high pressures which you pretty much don't find elsewhere in consumer applications.

Hydrogen is also extremely flammable/explosive. It will detonate in concentrations with air in the range 18.3-59%, and burn violently in the ranges 4-18.3% and 59-75%. For propane and butane, the components of LPG, the flammable ranges are 2.1-9.5% and 1.8-8.4%. Hydrogen also burns with an invisible flame.

And the energy required to ignite a hydrogen-air mixuture is extremely small, a mere 0.02 mJ. For propane and butane, the required spark energy is 0.26 mJ and 0.25 mJ, or about 13 times greater. Hydrogen-air mixtures have also been known to self-ignite, with no known cause.

Furthermore, exposure to hydrogen will embrittle a wide variety of alloys, weakening them until they shatter. Utmost care must be taken in designing and maintaining hydrogen storage sytems. Just one fake part from China is sufficient to cause a major leak.

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This is what ~500 grams of hydrogen (my guesstimate) detonating looks like (and just imagine how it would be like in an enclosed space):

A hydrogen car will usually hold 10 times more hydrogen, and a hydrogen tanker truck will hold 1000-2500 times more hydrogen.

 

[WannabeOwner]

Right, I've got it now, thanks :smile:

So I am now asking what must clearly be the most obvious question ...

Background: I'm quite happy with throwing public money at a possible solution. Can't expect New Tech to equal Old Tech on day one, nor be cost effective until decent production levels achieve an economy of scale, so government subsidy seems reasonable to me until New Tech has ramped up. Even putting a man on the moon had some useful spinoff benefits

But how did The powers That Be decide that H2 could become viable? (I can believe all sorts of lobbying by Oil and Automotive industries, and this is clearly a biased BEV forum , but that apart) Toyota scientists must have persuaded their bosses that it was doable? (There again, someone at VW must have decided that "Clean Diesel" was possible and then had to lie & cheat in order to "deliver" that promise). Even with huge government subsidy when Toyota got to the point of "Betting the Farm" on H2 they must have rationalised whether it was a realistic proposition ... or not?

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This is what ~500 grams of hydrogen (my guesstimate) detonating looks like

I am reminded of the chemistry class where we made "water" from Hydrogen and Oxygen. I'm sure we had been trying to persuade the teacher that we needed more "Blow Up Science" classes all term!!

So: washing up bowl of soapy water, Hydrogen and Oxygen tanks and some flexible tube, teacher turned on tanks at roughly 2:1 and got Bloggs Minor to hold the two tubes, together, under the soapy water. It frothed up nicely Bloggs Major was in charge of the lighted taper. "Now Sir?" ... "No, let it go a bit more" ...

We all gathered around and lent over the bowl to see what would happen, oblivious to the fact that the teacher was retreating to the far corner of the room and had his hands over his ears :biggrin:

I presume he had told the other teachers that "today is the day for the H2O experiment" as no one came in to see how many were dead! but at break our mates from other classes asked "What the hell happened in your class?" and we replied "Oh Wow, You won't believe it, it was amazing ...." ... the story improved with each retelling of course

No wish to repeat it, at my age, now, and most especially not with several KG of H2 rather than a few bubbles!

 

[Yggdrasill]

I am reminded of the chemistry class where we made "water" from Hydrogen and Oxygen. I'm sure we had been trying to persuade the teacher that we needed more "Blow Up Science" classes all term!!

So: washing up bowl of soapy water, Hydrogen and Oxygen tanks and some flexible tube, teacher turned on tanks at roughly 2:1 and got Bloggs Minor to hold the two tubes, together, under the soapy water. It frothed up nicely Bloggs Major was in charge of the lighted taper. "Now Sir?" ... "No, let it go a bit more" ...

We all gathered around and lent over the bowl to see what would happen, oblivious to the fact that the teacher was retreating to the far corner of the room and had his hands over his ears :biggrin:

I presume he had told the other teachers that "today is the day for the H2O experiment" as no one came in to see how many were dead! but at break our mates from other classes asked "What the hell happened in your class?" and we replied "Oh Wow, You won't believe it, it was amazing ...." ... the story improved with each retelling of course

No wish to repeat it, at my age, now, and most especially not with several KG of H2 rather than a few bubbles!

Our teacher apparently was a little inexperienced. He filled a ballon with a hydrogen/oxygen mix, and then he just used a lighter. He lost all the hair up to his elbow...

 

[MitchMitch]

Here's a diagram of how the Mirai is laid out:

[/QUOTE]

Holy complications Batman, Rube Goldberg would be proud ! Fool Cells indeed!!

 

[dhanson865]

I'd like to see the side view of that marai diagram vs a model S "skateboard"*.

* Model S drivetrain, battery, motors, shocks, tires, aka all the stuff below the passenger compartment.

I'm guessing the Mirai has a much more 3 dimensional look vs the nearly flat Model S skateboard.

Here is a hit skin from car and driver if you need to know where to shoot the Mirai to hit a fuel tank**. Fuel tanks would be the round blue objects below the rear seat and in line with the rear axle.

** While I'd never shoot a Mirai in real life the terminology from that sentence is common for online tank games take a look at hitskin wot - Google Search for some hitskins of another kind of tanks.

I get that blue = fuel + battery + other electrical and drive components and pink is passenger compartment. Whats up with the green at the trunk? Highlighting cargo space?

 

[JohnSnowNW]

Whats up with the green at the trunk? Highlighting cargo space?

Yup.

 

[1208]

It would be cool to have a similar diagram showing the Tesla S and X to compare with.

 

[S'toon]

 

[Grendal]

Just fantastic. When you are a huge EV advocate like RL, you just have to love Tesla and what they are doing. RL loves Tesla.

He's right about acceleration times:

List of fastest production cars by acceleration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The other "least expensive" crazy fast car is a Nissan GT-R. Except for that, you are paying substantially more. And none of them are comfortable to drive and enjoy other than for the speed. There is just no other comparison for a great all around car.

 

[GoTslaGo]

Excellent! I did not realize he was shooting new videos (last I saw was final of 2015)! Been on TMC instead...

 

[GoTslaGo]

Right, I've got it now, thanks :smile:

So I am now asking what must clearly be the most obvious question ...

Background: I'm quite happy with throwing public money at a possible solution. Can't expect New Tech to equal Old Tech on day one, nor be cost effective until decent production levels achieve an economy of scale, so government subsidy seems reasonable to me until New Tech has ramped up. Even putting a man on the moon had some useful spinoff benefits

But how did The powers That Be decide that H2 could become viable? (I can believe all sorts of lobbying by Oil and Automotive industries, and this is clearly a biased BEV forum , but that apart) Toyota scientists must have persuaded their bosses that it was doable? (There again, someone at VW must have decided that "Clean Diesel" was possible and then had to lie & cheat in order to "deliver" that promise). Even with huge government subsidy when Toyota got to the point of "Betting the Farm" on H2 they must have rationalised whether it was a realistic proposition ... or not?

- - - Updated - - -



I am reminded of the chemistry class where we made "water" from Hydrogen and Oxygen. I'm sure we had been trying to persuade the teacher that we needed more "Blow Up Science" classes all term!!

So: washing up bowl of soapy water, Hydrogen and Oxygen tanks and some flexible tube, teacher turned on tanks at roughly 2:1 and got Bloggs Minor to hold the two tubes, together, under the soapy water. It frothed up nicely Bloggs Major was in charge of the lighted taper. "Now Sir?" ... "No, let it go a bit more" ...

We all gathered around and lent over the bowl to see what would happen, oblivious to the fact that the teacher was retreating to the far corner of the room and had his hands over his ears :biggrin:

I presume he had told the other teachers that "today is the day for the H2O experiment" as no one came in to see how many were dead! but at break our mates from other classes asked "What the hell happened in your class?" and we replied "Oh Wow, You won't believe it, it was amazing ...." ... the story improved with each retelling of course

No wish to repeat it, at my age, now, and most especially not with several KG of H2 rather than a few bubbles!

Lest we all forget what a lot of hydrogen blowing up can do. A short video of the Hindenburg disaster in 1937:

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."--G.Santayana

 

[bestellen]

There was an event in Regina on Sept 12th, and another in Saskatoon on the 19th. Both events saw excellent turnouts (~10 vehicles and ~200 people).

 

[S'toon]

There was an event in Regina on Sept 12th, and another in Saskatoon on the 19th. Both events saw excellent turnouts (~10 vehicles and ~200 people).

Wait, what? For what? Whatever it was I never heard of it.

 

[Mayhemm]

Wait, what? For what? Whatever it was I never heard of it.

I'd say he's referencing last year's National Drive Electric Week events for some reason. I attended both and they were indeed excellent events with great turnout (for SK) but they don't really have anything to do with FullyCharged.

 

[S'toon]

I'd say he's referencing last year's National Drive Electric Week events for some reason. I attended both and they were indeed excellent events with great turnout (for SK) but they don't really have anything to do with FullyCharged.

Ah yes, you mentioned that before.

 

[1208]

The UK being perverse again...

 

[S'toon]

 

[Grendal]

You just have to love Robert Llewellyn. Just five or six years ago he was viewed, like a lot of us, as an environmental crackpot spouting nonsense. Time has caught up to him, and us, and he is now at the cutting edge of the automotive future. The funny thing is that he is saying exactly the same things he was saying years ago. I am proud to have him as the electric car spokesperson promoting the changeover. He doesn't want to be considered a Tesla fanboy even though you know that he is. Go Robert!

 

[1208]

My country invents another weird mobile, a hydrogen fool cell one at that. Going to happen when most of the country is more interested in liberal arts than science and engineering.