Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Russia/Ukraine conflict

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
I assume you mean "Military Industrial Complex" for MIC. We're not going to see an endless war. Russia is managing to stay in the field right now, but their army has taken significant losses and the only way to restore it to a real fighting force is to withdraw devastated units and rebuild them from the ground up. Instead they are feeding untrained troops into the existing units diluting their combat effectiveness and it will eventually get a lot of mobiks killed or maimed.

The military analysts who I trust all have the opinion that if nothing falls apart in Russia the Russians will be expelled from Ukrainian territory in less than a year. If Russia unravels internally it will happen quicker. This winter is going to be very hard on the Russians. Their supply situation is very bad and armies need more supplies in the winter to stay in the field. A lot of Russian troops are probably going to be lost to frostbite and hypothermia.

The Russians are running out of basics like uniforms and rifles. A lot of the people who were mobilized are suffering in makeshift camps with no basics like tents or sleeping bags as the Russian winter sets in. They can't ship them to Ukraine because they don't have enough rifles to give them and with the precarious supply situation in Ukraine they can't figure out how they are going to feed them even if they do send them to Ukraine.

They are probably producing as many AKs as they can, but production levels are way below needs for just about everything. Russian steel has degraded in quality since the fall of the USSR. There have been complaints from artillery commanders that post-Soviet barrels are wearing out much faster than the older Soviet guns. They also don't have much barrel production to replace worn out barrels so when a barrel reaches end of life, they discard the entire gun.

If their steel is that bad, the AKs that have been in combat for 9 months are also wearing out. New production of AKs is probably going mostly to replace the worn out AKs in their elite units leaving the left over junk for everyone else.

The flow of new equipment from the west is agonizingly slow. European NATO allies are sending all the spares they have, but the bulk of spare equipment is American. Now that the election is over Biden may pick up the pace in deliveries. A lot of US spare equipment is mothballed and needs to be refurbished after sitting for years. There is a lot of equipment the US military will never use like M113s from Vietnam and early version M1 Abrams. The M1s are a bit trickier to supply because they require extensive training to learn how to maintain them and I'm not sure what the stockpiles of 105mm ammunition are for the main guns.

M113s though are generally better than the BMPs the Ukrainians inherited (more survivable when hit being foremost) and are fairly simple beasts. If the Ukrainians wanted to farm out maintenance, it's been used by many countries so there are thousands of mechanics around the world who know them inside and out.

I suspect the US is training some Ukrainians to maintain and fly F-16s now. There are rumors some may be going to Ukraine by spring. F-16s would help the Ukraine air situation quite a bit and they can launch almost all NATO ordinance. But ground combat capability is most important right now.

In any case, Russia is not going to be able to keep up this war indefinitely. The west can continue to feed Ukraine weapons for a long time to come, but Russia is running low on some supplies, and may be out of others. Their capacity to build more is very limited and there is going to come a point when they can't even fake supplying the troops anymore.

If Ukraine can reach the shores of the Azoz this winter, that will be another blow in Russia's ability to supply their army. They are ferrying trucks in large numbers across the Kerch straits. In the winter this is only kept open with ice breakers. With land launched Neptunes on the coast of the Azoz, the Ukrainians can sink the ice breakers which would shut down the ferry service. If the Ukrainians have reached the coast all routes between Donbas and southern Ukraine, even road links, will be broken and their only supply route will be risking bridge collapse trying to run heavy trucks across the last span of the Kerch road bridge, or running heavily loaded trains across the damaged rail bridge at Kerch. The bulk of the army will be stuck with no supply in winter.

I agree Taleb, a disastrous loss for Russia in this war will likely trigger a civil war in Russia and with the army wiped out in Ukraine, Moscow will have a very tough time regaining control of the country. They probably won't be able to. We then have a balkanized Russia and spats between the new countries will probably be ongoing for years.

For the rest of the world that's probably the best outcome possible. Russia will be done as a military power forever.
I think that's projecting out a ways but yes in the words of the Sec of Defense, Lloyd Austin...we want to ensure russia is weakened to such an extent it can no longer do this to neighboring countries.
 
what stands out to me is how few people there are in Kherson now. That used to be a large city. Just hollowed out, all the russia collaborators have left, wonder when refugess return? Not til the spring I guess.

The Ukrainian special forces are impressive, first light and they have the EU and UKR flags flying. That's not an accident, that's planning. Someone is doing a great job with that.

And it's Headline News in the West, of course:

Ukraine War: Ukrainian flag 'raised in centre of Kherson' | Sky News

 
And it's Headline News in the West, of course:

Ukraine War: Ukrainian flag 'raised in centre of Kherson' | Sky News

Yep, its just well done. I would put myself in the Ukraine fan boy club but even I think that's just so over the top PR. I'm surprised it works but then I can't believe the excuses I hear from Trump maga people about why putin had to invade ukraine and how great putin is, etc. It seems many people just have abandoned thoughtful consideration of events.
 
Reports say that blowing the bridge would not flood the city, but instead the flood plains South of the city (where the current Russian forces are dug in). Kearson is a city built on elevation. Blowing the bridge would also leave the water supply to Crimea high and dry. The Russians there would suffer from this as well. Time will tell.
 
Reports say that blowing the bridge would not flood the city, but instead the flood plains South of the city (where the current Russian forces are dug in). Kearson is a city built on elevation. Blowing the bridge would also leave the water supply to Crimea high and dry. The Russians there would suffer from this as well. Time will tell.
Sounds like good news.

I'm pretty cynical about Russia's intelligence though. Destroying Crimean water supply to spite Ukraine is right up their genius level planning ally.
 
Now we get to find out if the pull out is just a giant trap to suck in Ukraine before they blow the dam and flood the city and surrounded territory.

Agreed, this a is fateful moment for Russian dictator V.I. Putin. The West has made it clear to Russia through private channels that if they demolish the dam, causing the Zaporizhia NPP to be dewatered (and putting it's cooling systems at risk), that will be considered a direct attack on the West. NATO will respond in no uncertain terms. Russia will blink, if they're smart.

As it stands, the entire evacuation route from Kherson to the Donbas will be within range of ATACM missiles. Putin would like to next send even more of his countrymen to that meat grinder in the vain hope of salvaging some gain from his 2013-on military campaign. Instead, he'll lose his entire army if he blows the dam.

As it is, Putin has cancelled his visit to the APEC summit next week, and he will be fortunate to survive the month. Why can't dictators ever retire, but must always leave office by death? I suppose that's fitting seeing that's how he ruled.
 
Last edited:
Looks like Russians have tried to disable all all three bridges using demolitions at the Crimea ends (i.e. where Ukraine cannot work in a protected zone)

- Kherson Antonovsky road bridge definitely unusable, several spans gone, not capable of a quick wartime patch job



1668189245739.png



- Kherson rail bridge, blown no images yet of consequences


- Nova Khakova dam crest road/rail bridges blown on several spans


And Ukraine making it very clear that they want to be in the EU, this is Kherson city square

1668189123212.png
 
Why can't dictators ever retire, but must always leave office by death? I suppose that's fitting seeing that's how he ruled.
That’s a softball question.

First order of business for Putin’s successor will be eliminating the possibility of Putin reclaiming his position. Only way to do that is offing Putin. Being a dictator is a posh position, but retiring is a bit of a challenge.
 
Looks like Russians have tried to disable all all three bridges using demolitions at the Crimea ends (i.e. where Ukraine cannot work in a protected zone)

- Kherson Antonovsky road bridge definitely unusable, several spans gone, not capable of a quick wartime patch job



View attachment 873573


- Kherson rail bridge, blown no images yet of consequences


- Nova Khakova dam crest road/rail bridges blown on several spans


And Ukraine making it very clear that they want to be in the EU, this is Kherson city square

View attachment 873572
This is a 2 edged sword. Now it will be much much tougher for Russia to recapture Kherson. The next big hot spot is now very likely going to be Melitopol or Mariupol
 
  • Informative
  • Like
Reactions: X Fan and madodel
This is a 2 edged sword. Now it will be much much tougher for Russia to recapture Kherson. The next big hot spot is now very likely going to be Melitopol or Mariupol
I think Russia recapturing Kherson is pretty much off of the table at this point. The best they can hope for is that Ukraine will be pressured into accepting the pre Feb. invasion borders. It does seem like some amount of pressure is now beginning to be exercised by the Western powers to persuade Ukraine to reach some sort of negotiation. My hunch is that Russia will retain control of Crimea at a minimum.
 
When the war started Russia had some goals. We are not really sure what they were, but as they communicated they wanted to de-militarize, to de-nazify Ukraine and to prevent Nato from bordering Russia.

So how are they doing with these goals?

With demilitarize Ukraine, it seems that Ukraine is more militarized than ever. So clearly they have been counterproductive in achieving this objective. Not great.

With de-nazify Ukraine, it was a bit unclear what they meant. We have come to understand that nazi does not refer to the National Socialist German Worker's Party and their ideas and actions, but mean that you are against Russia and think that Ukraine deserves to be its own country. How are they doing with this goal? Is Ukraine less pro Ukraine and less anti Russia? Clearly not, rather the war so far has been counterproductive.

To prevent Nato from bordering Russia? With Finland and Sweden joining Nato, the war has been counterproductive in achieving that objective. .

Were there some other goals? To expand Russian territory? To scare the west? To cause economic harm to the west more than Russia?
Some territory has been won, but recently more and more is lost. So I guess a small temporary victory so far. To scare the west? The west so far has lost all respect for the Russian army. To cause economic harm? Clearly Russia has been hurt many times more than the west.

So I would say, even if the war was just and reasonable, they have clearly failed at achieving any of the claimed objectives of the war, and soon will have very little to show for it.
 
Last edited:
I think Russia recapturing Kherson is pretty much off of the table at this point. The best they can hope for is that Ukraine will be pressured into accepting the pre Feb. invasion borders. It does seem like some amount of pressure is now beginning to be exercised by the Western powers to persuade Ukraine to reach some sort of negotiation. My hunch is that Russia will retain control of Crimea at a minimum.
I can't see Ukraine stopping before Crimea is liberated. Not now. They will clearly cut the canal again. Russia can't provide water to Crimea and without the rail they can't provide fuel. It is logistically a tough spot. There will be no tourism next year, the economy will collapse. Lots of things change for Ukraine now that the area south of Kherson along the Dnipro is safe to use as a launch pad for Himars. It makes the defense of the rest of Kherson untenable. That's why they've already started digging in along the sand dunes and marshes between Crimea and Kherson. That's not a bad defense point but they do not have the technological capabilities to engage in logistic wars of attrition. So they keep getting pushed back. The russian drones are doing some damage, Ukraine has lost quite a few pieces of artillery to russian drones. However, it is not enough and the shoot and scoot of the himars eludes the abilities of the russian drones, to date. So far, no himars lost is what we hear.

I can't see any reason whatsoever for Ukraine to not push into Crimea, I'm with General Ben Hodges on this one. They'll take it and by next summer.
 
OT:

It's been 5 years today since my father passed away. He turned 18 in 1945, so he avoided conscription into WW2, although 2 of his older brothers served in the Army. One is buried in a Canadian Military Cemetery in Italy (KIA Sept 1944).

My father was a 50-year Member of the Royal Canadian Legion, where he loved to dance and really knew how to kick up his heels. That's where I learned to dance. Dad gave me my first rifle when I was 12, and taught me how to use it properly. I don't have the rifle anymore, but I do still have the walkie-talkies he gave me in Christmas 1969.

I joined the Army Officer Training Program during my university years at his suggestion. In my BOTC/Phase 1, I scored High Expert with the FN-C1 7.62mm at 200m, shooting just the way he taught me. I learned to fire howitzers, run a Command Post, and the Regiment. But it all comes back to his one basic lesson, which I have never forgotten:

"You must control your breathing, son."

Rest in Peace, dad.

Poppies-in-the-Sunset-on-Lake-Geneva_art.png
 
I will say it again, very good at retreat. They put all these rumors of Russians bunkering down in Kherson, social media says it is a trap, slows Ukrainian army down and gives Russia time to organize a careful and thoughtful disengagement. Actually very well done retreat.

If Ukraine had a few hundred spare tanks they might ha e tested the hypothesis but they don’t. At this point I would expect little value in the equipment they left abandoned and not many munitions either.

Eyes turn north but remember that the same logistics issues that resulted from the Kerch bridge explosion apply to everything along the Sea of Azov. It can be supplied by boat but for now it is trucks. Logistics and prior history say this is going to be exploited by Ukraine post haste.

The Sea of Azoz freezes over most winters. The Russians have ice breakers in the area, but only a few.

The Russians supply conundrums have gotten much more complex. With rail logistics end to end, they load supplies on a train somewhere in Russia, then the train drops it off near the depot close to the front. Now they have to unload the train in Russia near the Kerch Strait onto a truck, then the truck has to wait for the ferry (the Russians only have a couple, they scrapped most of them after the Kersh St Bridge was complete), once ferried across the truck goes to a nearby rail depot where the supply is put back on a train. Much more labor and more time to move each ton of goods.

Additionally their capacity to move fuel is drastically worse. I've seen pictures of the trucks waiting for the ferries and there are few tanker trucks in the line. They were moving fuel by tanker car in trains, but now they have to put it on trucks and it doesn't look like they have all that many tanker trucks.

The Russians don't have the kind of bulk hauler ships needed to move a lot of cargo in the Black Sea/Azoz region. They have some landing ships left, but those would likely carry trucks loaded with supplies.

If the Ukrainians reach the Azoz coast they will be within Neptune range of all the Russian ports that would service Crimea. With the fall of Kherson they are in control of land points that put all of western Crimea in Neptune range.

The entire south is dependent on supply flowing into Cirmea and with that cut down, the southern front is drastically supply starved. The Russian offensive that went horribly wrong was an attempt to push the Ukrainians back from HIMARS range of the one rail line between Donbas and the south. They lost thousands battering a brick wall of Ukrainian defenses.

The Russians are probably moving small amounts of supply along southern roads, but their ability to do that is poor.

I think that's projecting out a ways but yes in the words of the Sec of Defense, Lloyd Austin...we want to ensure russia is weakened to such an extent it can no longer do this to neighboring countries.

Putin is doing an outstanding job of that.

Looks like Russians have tried to disable all all three bridges using demolitions at the Crimea ends (i.e. where Ukraine cannot work in a protected zone)

- Kherson Antonovsky road bridge definitely unusable, several spans gone, not capable of a quick wartime patch job



View attachment 873573


- Kherson rail bridge, blown no images yet of consequences


- Nova Khakova dam crest road/rail bridges blown on several spans


And Ukraine making it very clear that they want to be in the EU, this is Kherson city square

View attachment 873572

The bridges are probably out until after the war is over. At minimum until the Russians are pushed well back from the left bank of the river.

I think Russia recapturing Kherson is pretty much off of the table at this point. The best they can hope for is that Ukraine will be pressured into accepting the pre Feb. invasion borders. It does seem like some amount of pressure is now beginning to be exercised by the Western powers to persuade Ukraine to reach some sort of negotiation. My hunch is that Russia will retain control of Crimea at a minimum.

The Russians blowing the bridges on the way out made it clear that despite what they say, they have given up hope of taking back Kherson.

I'm skeptical about the rumors that western powers are pressuring Ukraine to settle. There are a lot of rumors, but the sources are not the most reliable. There may be some pressure, but I expect the pressure from the US is diminished now that the MAGA caucus lost in the election. Those were the bulk of politicians who were pro-Putin. 90+% of the rest want to see Russia eliminated as a threat to anyone.

I can't see Ukraine stopping before Crimea is liberated. Not now. They will clearly cut the canal again. Russia can't provide water to Crimea and without the rail they can't provide fuel. It is logistically a tough spot. There will be no tourism next year, the economy will collapse. Lots of things change for Ukraine now that the area south of Kherson along the Dnipro is safe to use as a launch pad for Himars. It makes the defense of the rest of Kherson untenable. That's why they've already started digging in along the sand dunes and marshes between Crimea and Kherson. That's not a bad defense point but they do not have the technological capabilities to engage in logistic wars of attrition. So they keep getting pushed back. The russian drones are doing some damage, Ukraine has lost quite a few pieces of artillery to russian drones. However, it is not enough and the shoot and scoot of the himars eludes the abilities of the russian drones, to date. So far, no himars lost is what we hear.

I can't see any reason whatsoever for Ukraine to not push into Crimea, I'm with General Ben Hodges on this one. They'll take it and by next summer.

The Russians can make the northern border to Crimea difficult to breach. It's a narrow isthmus, but the Russians have poor supply and poor quality troops vs an ever better Ukrainian force.

Towed artillery is pretty much obsolete. The US uses very little of it anymore, which is why there were so many M777s to give to Ukraine. There are so many threats, including drones to stationary artillery that can't be moved quickly. Most SP guns need to drop some kind of blade to stabilize the chassis when they fire. They can move more quickly than towed guns, but it still takes time to move. HIMARS can stop, shoot, and be on the move again within a minute or two.

By the time the Ukrainians get to Crimea, the rest of the south will have likely collapsed leaving a large chunk of their army available to go after Crimea. Both sides are stretched thin right now with a very long line of contact. The fall of right bank of the Dnipro frees up the Ukrainians quite a bit. They can put just a blocking force to the north in case the Russians want to raid the north and shift most of their sources east.

To keep the Russians tied down on the left bank of the Dnipro the west should give Ukraine some amphibious vehicles. That would pose a constant threat to the Russians of a Ukrainian crossing and force them to keep forces on the bank of the river.

The Russians are now a lot less mobile than the Ukrainians. The Ukrainians can keep some mobile reserve on the right bank to counter any Russian incursions, but the Russians, not having the ability to deploy mobile reserves would have to station more troops in static positions on the left bank to achieve the same blocking ability against the Ukrainians. With static positions, the Russians will also be more vulnerable to enemy artillery.

The Russians can harass cities and towns like they have been doing, but their ability to hit the Ukrainian army is much weaker than the ability of the Ukrainians to hit their troops.
 
I can't see Ukraine stopping before Crimea is liberated. Not now. They will clearly cut the canal again. Russia can't provide water to Crimea and without the rail they can't provide fuel. It is logistically a tough spot. There will be no tourism next year, the economy will collapse. Lots of things change for Ukraine now that the area south of Kherson along the Dnipro is safe to use as a launch pad for Himars. It makes the defense of the rest of Kherson untenable. That's why they've already started digging in along the sand dunes and marshes between Crimea and Kherson. That's not a bad defense point but they do not have the technological capabilities to engage in logistic wars of attrition. So they keep getting pushed back. The russian drones are doing some damage, Ukraine has lost quite a few pieces of artillery to russian drones. However, it is not enough and the shoot and scoot of the himars eludes the abilities of the russian drones, to date. So far, no himars lost is what we hear.

I can't see any reason whatsoever for Ukraine to not push into Crimea, I'm with General Ben Hodges on this one. They'll take it and by next summer.

I hope you're right. Russia obviously has no legitimate claim to Crimea, and letting them keep it sets a bad precedent. It all comes down to the nuclear threat. I don't think the Western powers have the stomach to risk a nuclear escalation once Putin is well and truly cornered.