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Russia/Ukraine conflict
- Thread starter amolina
- Start date
The F-18 has two engines and the inlets are higher than the F-16. With two engines you can lose one engine and still fly. FOD is a serious problem with jets. The west deals with the problem with training for diligence, the Russians deal with it by designing their planes to avoid it.
The Australians have a 46 F-18s that are in limbo. They were to be sold to a US company called Air USA which does Top Gun type training for the US military, but the sale is hung up and it's unclear why.
The Gripen would be the ideal western fighter for Ukraine. It is designed for the type of war Ukraine is fighting.
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
Some more good stuff...
Anyone knows where one kan find the source material for these? Is it on Youtube?
EDIT: A word of warning to any minors that may have 'stumbled' upon this thread. The content in the video below may be considered NSFW/Inapropriate at your current location...
Anyone knows where one kan find the source material for these? Is it on Youtube?
EDIT: A word of warning to any minors that may have 'stumbled' upon this thread. The content in the video below may be considered NSFW/Inapropriate at your current location...
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SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
But can't they just work around this by applying throttle gradually at take off instead of going 100% from the get go?...
And as I understand it, the F-16 can be equipped with a drag chute,
EDIT: The F-16 doesn't seem to have thrust reversers. See below.
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SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
Australia is allegedly sending some 100 cardboard drones per month to UKR...
Artful Dodger
"Neko no me"
Getting dangerous to be rushing around Ukraine:
24 May: Multiple Russian Convoys CAUGHT ON THE MOVE AND DESTROYED | Reporting from Ukraine
24 May: Multiple Russian Convoys CAUGHT ON THE MOVE AND DESTROYED | Reporting from Ukraine
I don't believe turbojets can have thrust reversers. Normally you want to take off at full power. How ramped up you have the engine doesn't make that huge a difference. Planes can ingest FOD while taxiing. Even at idle a turbojet is sucking a lot of air.
It's pretty much impossible to operate a US fighter in a field with dirt taxi ways or reventments. You just can't keep the material down that will get sucked into the engines. Most Russian designed fighters can because of the taxi inlets.
Russian production quality can be iffy, and they lag the west in many areas of materials engineering and electronics, but Russian has had very good aeronautical engineers since before WW II. They started WW II with some pretty ancient aircraft, but the MiG-3 which was available in small numbers when the Germans invaded gave the Germans fits. Their newer fighters throughout the war were pretty good, but their aviation industry could not produce enough, so they relied on a lot of American and some British aircraft. The American aircraft tended to survive rough conditions better than the Russian domestically designed aircraft, but they were fairly good in performance.
After the war Russia lacked the metals industry to produce good jet engines until they managed to steal some metallurgical secrets from the British. They also have suffered setbacks because they did not figure out how to mass produce air frames out of titanium until well after the west was doing it.
The MiG-25 put fear into western aircraft designers until they captured one and found out the radio had tubes (no transistors) and the body was made from stainless steel instead of titanium. It was massively heavier than anyone thought because of this. It spurred the development of the F-14, F-15, and F-16 to counter it. The Russian designers made some curious, but quite good compromises considering their limitations in materials and electronics.
The taxi inlets is one of their innovations that I think the west should have copied. It would make it easier to operate western fighters from ad hoc airfields.
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
But who operates fighter jets from dirt taxi ways?... I sincerely doubt even 'Crazy Ivan' does that (even though the Mig-29s allegedly can be operated that way)... 'We the Swedes' certainly do not. The Finns certainly do not either. So why in the world would the Ukrainians?!?... And if 'we the Swedes' and our dear, dear neighbors the Finns can plan around and solve the 'reventment-issue', then why wouldn't the Ukrainians be able to do the exact same thing?...
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I don’t like this at all; the guys are getting away! Nice that there’s fewer trucks, but a little stealth so they kill all the Russians inside the trucks would be so much more productive.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Along with the voices in your head...
I haven't done any research on this, but from this video
it appears Finland had built hard taxi strips to the sides of the highways they planned to use for air strips. They can tow the aircraft over to dirt parking areas, but they don't fire up the engines unless they are sitting on a hard surface that looks like it's been swept to standards someone with severe OCD would approve of. Building those sorts of aprons around highways so aircraft without taxi inlets can operate from the highway takes pre-planning.
I don't know much about the specific design of the Gripen, but I do know that Sweden had the sort of war Ukraine is fighting now in mind when they designed the plane. I assume Saab took the problem of FOD into account.
Here is another article with a US F-16 pilot weighing in:
https://eurasiantimes.com/f-16-fighters-jet-sitting-ducks-for-russian-missiles-us-air-force/
The Ukrainians have probably been pushing for F-16s because they are the western jet they are most likely to get. At least three European air forces have surplus or will soon have surplus F-16s as they transition to F-35s. Those governments have probably been making noises for a while they would like to donate those to Ukraine if the US gave permission.
The Australian F-18s are tied up in some unknown red tape and Sweden has not made any noises that they have many Gripens to give away, so Ukraine campaigned for the fighter they could get.
The F-16 may be the most vulnerable plane to FOD out there. The inlet is only 30 inches above the ground (about 0.75 m). The inlets on the F-18 are about a foot higher (about 30 cm) and set back from where it is on the F-16.
I want Ukraine to be successful, but I am concerned Russia will be able to keep the F-16 bases shut down. They don't even need to hit the runway, just get debris on the runway. That could happen if a drone is shot down over the base. Keep up a flow of drones and Ukraine will have to keep shooting them down and will have to cob the runway again after every attack in case drone fragments of AD ammunition fragments got on the runway or hard stands where they warm up engines.
The Me-262 suffered a similar problem. When they got airborne and up to altitude they were hard to stop, but they were very vulnerable when landing and taking off so the Allies kept fighter patrols near the known Me-262 bases. The Germans had to operate piston engine fighters to try and protect the Me-262s when near the base. The Me-262 was particularly vulnerable when landing. The engines would flame out if the throttle was moved too quickly, so when slowed down for landing, the pilot was committed. If a P-51 jumped them, there was nothing they could do except pray they got down OK.
General Adolf Galland fell out with Hitler in early 1945 and ended up ending the war commanding a unit of Me-262s made up of other experienced pilots he could scrape together. Just before the end of the war he was jumped while landing and just managed to get his plane down and get out before it burned up. He finished the war in the hospital.
The Russians will put a maximum effort into trying to keep the F-16 bases as shut down as possible. They don't have the ability to have fighters loitering around the Ukrainian bases, but they have other things they can do. Along with constant harassing attacks they can also position their MiG-31s to watch the area around the known F-16 bases and shoot down anything they see near the base. The Russians have an extreme range air to air missile that is intended to be used against AWACS, but they have been using them to target Ukrainian aircraft.
Russia’s MiG-31 Crews Are Shooting At Ukrainian Pilots From A Hundred Miles Away—And The Ukrainians Can’t Shoot Back
If the US were drawn into the war, they would arrive with overwhelming air power flying from bases that are well out of range of Russian attack. Additionally because NATO has had decades to prepare, there are dozens of different airfields in Europe the NATO F-16s could operate from in the event of a war with Russia. All the facilities for F-16s and other NATO jets are already there and waiting.
Ukraine's air force is a very small effort compared to what the US can bring. The US can bring a force with a wide array of weapons to neutralize all Russian air defense and knock all Russian aircraft out of the sky anywhere near Ukraine within a couple of days. Ukraine is never going to have that kind of air power. Even if the west gave them enough aircraft and trained enough pilots from scratch they don't have the ground infrastructure to support such a force.
Ukraine's air force is like the raiding force that went into Belgorod oblast and the US's air forces are like a massive army. A raiding force can do damage and freak out the enemy, which that force did, but to take and hold ground you need numbers. In the air to gain and hold air superiority you need numbers. The Ukrainians can deny air superiority to the Russians, but they have no hope of gaining it themselves unless something happens to the entire Russian air force. Which is probably not going to happen.
The F-16 is a premiere light weight boxer, great in the ring, but maybe not so great in a street brawl. Ukraine needs a good street fighter that can fight dirty and work in unpredictable ways.
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
I'm guessing this Jeffrey Sachs dude is to be 'characterized' as a so called "pacifist"...
Below is a 'conversation' about all the recent US wars, but when it comes to Ukraine he keeps spouting 'a fair amount' of all the Russian Dictators lies, lies, lies and lies...
Two examples:
"Well, this war is going very badly. There were tens of thousands of deaths in this Bakhmut battle just now that Russia has won and Ukraine has lost."
"When it comes to Ukraine, we knew — our diplomats knew and warned that the continued pressure by the military-industrial complex to expand NATO to Ukraine would provoke war."
How nice of him to completely deny Ukraine ALL agency.
Also very nice of him to demand that Ukraine rolls over on her back while being raped.
Makes me wonder what his response would have been to the Holocaust and the Holodomor...
It also makes me wonder what kind of dirt the Russian Dictator has on him...
Full transcript here:
The Youtube-version:
Below is a 'conversation' about all the recent US wars, but when it comes to Ukraine he keeps spouting 'a fair amount' of all the Russian Dictators lies, lies, lies and lies...
Two examples:
"Well, this war is going very badly. There were tens of thousands of deaths in this Bakhmut battle just now that Russia has won and Ukraine has lost."
"When it comes to Ukraine, we knew — our diplomats knew and warned that the continued pressure by the military-industrial complex to expand NATO to Ukraine would provoke war."
How nice of him to completely deny Ukraine ALL agency.
Also very nice of him to demand that Ukraine rolls over on her back while being raped.
Makes me wonder what his response would have been to the Holocaust and the Holodomor...
It also makes me wonder what kind of dirt the Russian Dictator has on him...
Full transcript here:
Jeffrey Sachs: Bipartisan Support of War Is Helping Fuel U.S. Debt Crisis
The United States faces a default on its debt in early June if a deal on the debt ceiling is not reached between the Biden administration and Republicans in Congress before then. House Speaker Kevin McCarthy is pushing for sweeping budget cuts and new work requirements for recipients of...
www.democracynow.org
The Youtube-version:
bkp_duke
Well-Known Member
I had an employee who was a retired F16 instructor. The runway needs of the F16 are legit and no joke. He once said "the Migs and Sukhoi's can take off from just about anything, but the F16 needs a baby's butt smooth runway free of even the smallest debris".
Not an insurmountable obstacle, but it is a known variable with the F16.
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
Any reason why the Ukrainians wouldn't have done the exact same thing?...
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
It seems that we are going to find out what the F-16 will be able to do in Ukraine...
Seems rather interesting to me. Don't think the F-16 has been up against something like this before...
bkp_duke
Well-Known Member
It's probably the most nimble 4th gen fighter there is. If the Ukrainians want to go after Russian jets for dogfights, this is the proper tool (handful of Su-57s aside - but Russia won't send those to UKR airspace). It's also a very VERY capable long-range bombing platform with far better radar and tracking than anything the Ukrainians have used before.
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
1. Maybe I was wrong about the Gripen...
2. Or maybe the future Ukrainian Air Force will have X Gripens when the Russian Dictator has been defeated in Ukraine.
Or maybe both 1 & 2...
Here's a google translate of an article published by Swedish Public Service Broadcast Televsion (SVT Nyheter) some one+ hour ago:
Ukrainian pilots will be allowed to train flying the Gripen
UPDATED TODAY 15:30PUBLISHED TODAY 14:05
The government has decided to let Ukrainian pilots be trained to fly the Jas 39 Gripen. This is confirmed by the Ministry of Defense for SVT Nyheter.
The announcement from the Swedish government comes in connection with an ongoing visit by Swedish Defense Minister Pål Jonson (M) and Civil Defense Minister Karl Oskar Bohlin [...] to Ukraine. It follows a request from Ukrainian Defense Minister Oleksii Neznikov, reports TV4 Nyheterna [another Swedish news outlet].
On site in Ukraine, the Swedish ministers will also visit military units that already use Swedish defense equipment today.
Before the training can begin, it is stated that there remain some formal decisions from both the Swedish and Ukrainian sides. According to the Swedish Minister of Defence, it is a group of experienced military aviators who have already undergone pilot training in Ukraine who will be allowed to practice in simulators and also fly Gripen aircraft. [My underline.]
- It's a 'orientation programe', says Pål Jonson to TV4 Nyheterna.
Unlikely that Swedish Gripens are sent
Ukraine has repeatedly asked a number of countries for help with combat aircraft, including Sweden. In February, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy specifically asked Sweden for Gripen planes.Today's announcement can be seen as a first step towards Ukraine acquiring the combat aircraft - but this does not mean that Sweden will send Swedish planes that the Swedish Armed Forces currently have. It is currently unlikely, says Defense Minister Jonson, according to TV4 Nyheterna.
He emphasizes that Sweden needs the six divisions [of Gripeens] that it has.
- The planes Sweden has are needed for our own national defense, at the moment it is not 'an option' to lend any aircraft to Ukraine.
SAAB refers all inquiries to the Ministry of Defence
The Jas 39 Gripen is manufactured by Swedish aerospace and defence company Saab. In a written comment to SVT, press manager Mattias Rådström says:"Like everyone else, we have taken note of the media information that Ukrainian pilots will receive training on the Gripen. We currently have no other information about this, and refer further questions to the Ministry of Defence."
The article in Swedish:
Ukrainska piloter ska få öva på Jas Gripen
Regeringen har beslutat att låta ukrainska piloter tränas i att flyga Jas 39 Gripen. – Det är en möjlighet för Ukraina att testa och få en bättre förståelse för Gripens prestanda, säger Försvarsminister Pål Jonson (M) till SVT Nyheter.
www.svt.se
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SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
Guessing that this is part of Dutch decision making with regards to F-16s...
Are you really linking to Eurasiantimes articles to back up you're skepticism of F-16s usefulness to Ukraine? You're wrong on this issue, and you might as well back off from the F-16 bashing. This will be readily apparent when Ukraine begins making good use of them.
