Russia/Ukraine conflict

[wdolson]

This is true... but lets not rewrite history here. The one who reneged on promises over and over again was NOT Putin, but US Presidents and NATO.

Over and over again, US president after president gave promise to Yeltsin, Gorbachev and also Putin that "NATO will NOT expand east". A bunch of liers.

The liars in this scenario are the Russians. The US never promised not to expand NATO
‘There was no promise not to enlarge NATO’ - Harvard Law School

Did NATO Promise Not to Enlarge? Gorbachev Says "No" | Brookings

Also the US resisted the expansion of NATO eastward. It was the eastern European countries that demanded it.

How Gorbachev was misled over assurances against NATO expansion | NATO Watch

All Russia said, while it seriously objects its former Soviet colonies coming under the influence of NATO or being given direct NATO membership, but any shenanigans on Ukraine will be considered as crossing the red line and will not be tolerated. Ukraine should not be under the influence of US and NATO - that was the only non-negotiable demand from Russia.

https://www.reuters.com/markets/stocks/putin-warns-russia-will-act-if-nato-crosses-its-red-lines-ukraine-2021-11-30/

The west knows very well, that if NATO can deploy its missiles in Ukraine, Moscow is completely surrounded and will be considerably weakened, and for that reason alone Russia will not allow that. And yet, Biden moved forward offering NATO membership knowing very well this will trigger Russia into a "pre-emptive & defensive" war.

The west is the one acting like Hitler with a plethora of reneged promises. And it won't end well in the long run. Karma is a bitch. She will get her pound of flesh. The wheels of karma will move slowly, but it will be decisive. Russia may lose to the combined might of US, Eng, France and Germany. But the last chapter in this saga won't be written for many more years to come.

You sound like RT news here. Nobody in the west wants to conquer Russia. That's just Russian paranoia. A lot of countries in Europe wanted into NATO because they wanted to be under the US' nuclear umbrella to be safe from Russia. The US has not invaded anywhere in Europe since 1944. Russia has this decade.

Why would it be a problem for us if Russia had a defense treaty with Mexico? Are we planning on invading Mexico?

Also we haven't offered NATO membership to Ukraine, not that that's how it works anyways. Please show me where you're getting this information from.

We do have a major party candidate for president who has promised to invade Mexico if he's elected. But the US military is not planning any invasion of Mexico.

There has been talk of putting Ukraine on track to join NATO eventually, but it would be years after the war if ever. Someone I saw a year or two back made the point that after this war was over, the west can't afford to not have a strong alliance with Ukraine. Ukraine is going to be the most experienced military in Europe at the end of this war. Western countries are going to want to learn from the Ukrainians. Also the west will be safer with the Ukrainian military on the inside of the tent rather than on the outside.

And remember Elon promised full FSD in 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 and in 2023. And that is something he both knows something about and has some control over. And one can add in the Semi, and Roadster.

I recall Elon talking about FSD "coming soon" in 2014. He initially believed that FSD could be done with AP1.

 

[BitJam]

Also the US resisted the expansion of NATO eastward. It was the eastern European countries that demanded it.

This is a key point. Eastern European countries wanted to join NATO because they didn't want to be invaded by Russia. ISTM Putin's problem with the expansion of NATO is it left fewer and fewer small countries that he could invade with impunity. OTOH, Mexico and Canada are not terrified of an expansionist USA.

The US invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan were travesties. I was against them. I am also against the Russian invasion of Ukraine. On top of that, Russia vastly outmatched the US in terms of genocide and horrific war crimes. And perhaps the biggest difference is the US planned to eventually leave or mostly leave both Iraq and Afghanistan while Putin has made it perfectly clear he wants to make Ukraine a permanent part of Russia and use it as a springboard to move on and conquer other countries.

IMO there are two kinds of people who create endless, needless problems around a CEO who is in the news a lot: those who think he can do nothing right, and those who think he can do nothing wrong. The same is probably true of the USA and of Russia. Going on and on about how $X can do nothing right (or nothing wrong) is tiresome and unhelpful. Saying something is wrong (or right) merely because $X did it makes no sense. We are all imperfect beings in an imperfect world.

 

[Surfer of Life]

Will the Troll- feeding never stop???

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

Top 10 Generative AI Models Mimic Russian Disinformation Claims A Third of the Time, Citing Moscow-Created Fake Local News Sites as Authoritative Sources​

NewsGuard audit finds that 32% of the time, leading AI chatbots spread Russian disinformation narratives created by John Mark Dougan, an American fugitive now operating from Moscow, citing his fake local news sites and fabricated claims on YouTube as reliable sources. [...​

Top 10 Generative AI Models Mimic Russian Disinformation Claims A Third of the Time, Citing Moscow-Created Fake Local News Sites as Authoritative Sources - NewsGuard

www.newsguardtech.com

World's top AI chatbots have no problem parroting Russian disinformation​

Study finds they're taking Putin pushers' point of view 30% of the time​

10 most popular AI chatbots parrot Russian disinformation

Study finds they're taking Putin pushers' point of view 30% of the time

www.theregister.com

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

Russians using ChatGPT-4 to push their garbage and forgetting to pay for the license is really something. [...]

And you know why they are doing this? Because they know that they cannot win the war. They need the West to stop, but when the West does not stop and instead increases the paces, then it is Game Over for Russia. This is the only reason why you see them so frantically trying impersonate Americans or other Westerners.

x.com/Tendar/status/1803120165459997053

 

[lolachampcar]

The problem I have with "AI" is that is simply coalesces a massive amount of existing information to extrapolate a response. Switching over to it means we stop creating new information (right or wrong). It seems to me that AI may help to see the past more clearly at the same time it stifles future learning.

There seems to be little intelligence in a system that perpetuates untruth.

 

[navguy12]

 

[Electroman]

Will the Troll- feeding never stop???

There you go.. I was just waiting for this.

The echo chamber that is created by US media - CNN, WSJ, CNBC, WaPo, Forbes - has brain washed the 'Iraq has WMD' American sheep. The west, specifically the US has mastered the art of manipulating public sentiment. The entire western media speaks in unison and can make anyone a villain or a hero.

But then today there is social media and the world is slowly realizing not everything the western media and western institutions spout is gospel. Hence the weak support to Ukraine on this war, not just across the non-west world, but even in the US. The support in the US is pushed vigorously by those that can profit from the war. After all it is only the Ukrainians and Russians dying.

Vivek Ramaswamy said it right - the existential danger for US and Europe is China, and not Russia. Instead these Democrat and RINO bums are losing focus and are trying to kill an already weakened Russia.

I am really hoping Trump would win and would put an end to this misery.

 

[DanCar]

Will the Troll- feeding never stop???

It is good to try to get opposing views on the same page, or some kind of mutual understanding. If nothing else, it is good to understand opposing views.

People have concerns and perspectives. Good to discuss.

 

[indysurfer]

Vivek Ramaswamy said it right - the existential danger for US and Europe is China, and not Russia. Instead these Democrat and RINO bums are losing focus and are trying to kill an already weakened Russia.

I guarantee you if China were to invade Taiwan, Vivek and all the guys who claim we should abandon Ukraine and focus on China would abandon Taiwan too. Absolutely no way they would recommend sending US troops to fight China. Not in a million years.

Personally, I think it is much cheaper and less risky for the US and the West to provide weapons to Ukraine so they can defend themselves from Russia which could also be a deterrent to China in the coming years. China is watching closely as multi-million dollar Russian tanks and ships are being taken out by cheap drones forcing Russia to fight a grinding WWI trench battle with little gains.

If you don't like the amount of money and influence MIC currently has in the US now, it will get much worse if Russia manages to defeat Ukraine.

 

[Daniel in SD]

the existential danger for US and Europe is China, and not Russia.

What should the US and Europe do when China invades Taiwan?

 

[DanCar]

In case you like to believe Putin lies:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1803143419084067123

From Russia controlled media:
We have no plans to occupy Ukrainian territories. We are not going to impose anything on anyone by force.

OMG such hideous lies.

 

[growler23]

It is good to try to get opposing views on the same page, or some kind of mutual understanding. If nothing else, it is good to understand opposing views.

People have concerns and perspectives. Good to discuss.

Fair enough. In that vein, to answer the original poster, since China is backing Russia's war with as many vehicles, "dual-use" pieces of equipment, and political PR cover as they possibly can jam through the pipeline... isn't defeating Russia in Ukraine also a defeat for China? How is focusing on defeating the Russian power grab, which is closely, tightly and loudly backed by China...good for China?
It ain't.
Stopping bad Chinese-backed Russian behavior discourages bad Chinese behavior in the future, obviously. Perhaps Mr. Ramaswamy would like to explain to the supposedly warmongering American public (wait, who's army is in who's country again?) how funding the stopping of China-backed invasions is "good" for China.
Zooming out : it does appear, now that the recent US aid is just starting to get through (mostly to the Kharkiv region), that Russia's grasping fingers are getting badly burned (particularly as Russia gives back their few but costly gains in Vovchansk), and are in danger of falling off. Wonder if they will pull their fingers out of the fire?
Anyone know how those oil sales are doing lately? On an entirely unrelated note I'm sure, any idea when those new Storm Shadows arrive?

(* edited for a typo)

 

[unk45]

...

Atleast Russia fought wars with its immediate neighbors.
...

This is informative!/s I thought i was quite good with geography but you show me I'm not./s

You might show me please, where might be the Russian borders with Afghanistan, Syria and Cuba, to name three. Given their size though, Russia is at least in part on the same continent with Afghanistan. FWIW I was in Yemen when the Russians were controlling Aden, while trying to defeat the undefeatable Afghans, so there is another one, pre-Putin though.

 

[Dreadnought]

Vivek Ramaswamy said it right - the existential danger for US and Europe is China, and not Russia. Instead these Democrat and RINO bums are losing focus and are trying to kill an already weakened Russia.

The existential threat to Ukraine is Russia. US, Europe and several other countries support Ukraine in their fight for survival as a sovereign nation.

How did you come to the conclusion that anyone is trying to kill Russia? If Russia withdrew their troops from occupied territories, the fighting would stop immediately and the EU would send construction equipment to Ukraine instead of weapons.

What is the majority of posters in this thread missing?
Feel free to explain it like I was a 5 year old.

 

[Electroman]

You might show me please, where might be the Russian borders with Afghanistan, Syria and Cuba, to name three. Given their size though, Russia is at least in part on the same continent with Afghanistan

Afghanistan is much more of a neighbor for Russia, than Iraq and Bosnia would ever be for US.

Russia invaded Cuba? I need to take some history lessons.

 

[FielderJones]

It is good to try to get opposing views on the same page, or some kind of mutual understanding. If nothing else, it is good to understand opposing views.

People have concerns and perspectives. Good to discuss.

Good faith opposing views are one thing. Propaganda from trolls, useful idiots, or Russian assets are another.

 

[DanCar]

Good faith opposing views are one thing. Propaganda from trolls, useful idiots, or Russian assets are another.

Electroman has 15K likes on this forum, since 2012. Is that enough to conclude good faith?

 

[Quagmire2]

There you go.. I was just waiting for this.

The echo chamber that is created by US media - CNN, WSJ, CNBC, WaPo, Forbes - has brain washed the 'Iraq has WMD' American sheep. The west, specifically the US has mastered the art of manipulating public sentiment. The entire western media speaks in unison and can make anyone a villain or a hero.

But then today there is social media and the world is slowly realizing not everything the western media and western institutions spout is gospel. Hence the weak support to Ukraine on this war, not just across the non-west world, but even in the US. The support in the US is pushed vigorously by those that can profit from the war. After all it is only the Ukrainians and Russians dying.

Vivek Ramaswamy said it right - the existential danger for US and Europe is China, and not Russia. Instead these Democrat and RINO bums are losing focus and are trying to kill an already weakened Russia.

I am really hoping Trump would win and would put an end to this misery.

And how do you know what is on social media is truthful?

You have idiots like Dave Portnoy talking about the brace position if your plane is about to crash is designed to kill you to avoid lawsuits, not save lives. Social media has people believing the elites drink child bloods in the back of pizza parlors.

Social media is just as dangerous at spreading wrong information if not worse than US/Western media.

You're so turned off with western media, you're now falling for Russian propaganda and spouting BS. You must be born after 9/11 because I can't believe someone who was alive and old enough to understand what it was and meant could then use Afghanistan as a way to say NATO is an offensive alliance and wanting to conquer the world. Afghanistan was horribly mishandled and managed. We should have just gone in, got Bin Laden and got out. Ok even saying we should have toppled the Taliban because they backed Bin Laden, we should not have stayed as long as we did. And when we left of course that was messed up too.

You're also hugely misinformed on Iraq and when it comes to NATO. But you want to somehow tie the two together to justify Russia's fear of Ukraine joining NATO thinking NATO invading Russia is next. No one here is justifying the US invading Iraq. We are able to call out the US and the allies that did join in as a mistake that should never have happened.

You want to end the war in Ukraine? Russia just needs to get out. That ends it. There is no desire to conquer Russia. The Post-WWII era world doesn't tolerate land conquests. That is why they are sending military aid to Ukraine. Russia is the imperial one here. Why they keep insisting any peace talks now involve keeping the land they illegally annexed. If Russia invaded just to keep Ukraine out of NATO, then they would be satisfied with Ukraine committing to not joining NATO. But they are not. They want parts of Ukraine as well.

 

[FielderJones]

Electroman has 15K likes on this forum, since 2012. Is that enough to conclude good faith?

Depends on whether or not kompromat is involved.