Ukraine successfully peeling the layers off Putin’s onion:
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Russia/Ukraine conflict
- Thread starter amolina
- Start date
You want to end the war in Ukraine, give iron clad guarantees that Ukraine will not join NATO, not now, not anytime in the future. Give guarantees for Russia unfettered land access and water rights to Crimea. If US had done that in Jan of 2022, this war would not have started. Now much blood has flowed and Russia will not stop until it installs its vassals in Donetsk and Donbas. Russia is not interested in annexing Ukraine, but it does not want to lose total control over Russian speaking areas in that region, who have had centuries of historical ties with Moscow.
This could be a good reading for many of you.
How America’s NATO expansion obsession plays into the Ukraine crisis
The post-Cold War debates shaping the current standoff with Russia.
www.vox.com
You want to end the war in Ukraine, give iron clad guarantees that Ukraine will not join NATO, not now, not anytime in the future. Give guarantees for Russia unfettered land access and water rights to Crimea. If US had done that in Jan of 2022, this war would not have started. Now much blood has flowed and Russia will not stop until it installs its vassals in Donetsk and Donbas. Russia is not interested in annexing Ukraine, but it does not want to lose tota control over Russian speaking areas in that region, who have had centuries of historical ties with Moscow.
This could be a good reading for many of you.
How America’s NATO expansion obsession plays into the Ukraine crisis
The post-Cold War debates shaping the current standoff with Russia.
Crimea which Russia once again invaded to take......
I don't care what Russia wants in terms of losing control over Russian speaking areas. That land is within Ukraine's borders. They have no right to come in and take it even if in the past before the USSR broke up, they had ties to Moscow. They no longer did before Russia decided to stir crap up. It would be like you justifying Russia invading Alaska because they had ties to Moscow before it became apart of the US.
Ukraine did offer to not join NATO before Russia invaded. They still did. If they had no interest in annexing Ukraine, Russia's first move would not have been straight to Kyiv to take out its government. They wanted the whole country to install a new puppet government.
Tiger
Active Member
Why would anyone in their right mind agree to that?
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
I'm desperately trying to follow you here. It is really really hard when you say things like Vivek is right (although I guess even a broken clock can be right twice a day so I'll have to give you that one).You want to end the war in Ukraine, give iron clad guarantees that Ukraine will not join NATO, not now, not anytime in the future. Give guarantees for Russia unfettered land access and water rights to Crimea. If US had done that in Jan of 2022, this war would not have started. Now much blood has flowed and Russia will not stop until it installs its vassals in Donetsk and Donbas. Russia is not interested in annexing Ukraine, but it does not want to lose total control over Russian speaking areas in that region, who have had centuries of historical ties with Moscow.
This could be a good reading for many of you.
How America’s NATO expansion obsession plays into the Ukraine crisis
The post-Cold War debates shaping the current standoff with Russia.
Tell Russia that a sovereign nation will not be allowed to choose its own destiny and move towards the West even if they feel that is best for their nation and their people. How do you suggest we enforce that on Ukraine after the US makes that promise to Russia?
Give Russia access........ Again, how do you expect the US to enforce that promise to Russia if Ukraine chooses to fetter some access at some point in the future?
Russia is not interested in annexing Ukraine. Sure does not look that way given they have annexed Ukrainian territory.
Electroman,
I'm really trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here. I feel you when talk about loss of life. I'm just a little concerned that some in the West have forgotten the cost of freedom and, at the same time, are willing to sacrifice other's freedom to suit our tastes.
Choose to help or not help Ukraine; we are a democracy in the US and can vote for whomever we choose. Making promises for another sovereign nation is completely different matter especially making promises for a nation fighting for its very survival.
FielderJones
Member
There's one thing that you can almost 100% count on from a tankie, and that is that they will never be of Eastern European heritage (other than Russian). They will never have had family members under the Russian thumb. They will talk of realpolitik and view Eastern Europeans as without agency, subject to the whims of the Russian bear. They would never tolerate a totalitarian takeover of the country of their own heritage.
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
You want to end the war in Ukraine, give iron clad guarantees that Ukraine will not join NATO, not now, not anytime in the future. Give guarantees for Russia unfettered land access and water rights to Crimea. If US had done that in Jan of 2022, this war would not have started. Now much blood has flowed and Russia will not stop until it installs its vassals in Donetsk and Donbas. Russia is not interested in annexing Ukraine, but it does not want to lose total control over Russian speaking areas in that region, who have had centuries of historical ties with Moscow.
This could be a good reading for many of you.
How America’s NATO expansion obsession plays into the Ukraine crisis
The post-Cold War debates shaping the current standoff with Russia.
Ukraine decides if they want to join NATO or not. The Russian Dictator and his minions gets no say whatsoever about that. Simple as that. And Donetsk, Donbas and Crimea are Ukraine. Also simple as that.
And whatever that Vox babble is – it is simply just hogwash.
The thing is, everything he's saying is stuff that's been debunked 2 years ago. Did he step out of a time machine?
DanCar
Active Member
My memory is hazy but they seem to correlate with Trump and Russian talking points. How much of America assumes this is true? I suspect a large amount since there are Trump Fans and Trump followers. Best we can do is debunk over and over again? Link to a community notes on the subject?
jabloomf1230
Minister of Silly Walks
The culprits aren't the trolls. Like many others, I have those accounts blocked. The guilty parties are those people who prolong a futile discussion by responding to the trolls. Unfortunately, I can still see their posts.
China(PRC) will not invade Taiwan unless the status quo changes & Taiwan declares itself independent of China. You can read up on the status quo on wiki, its too descriptive to document here. For example:
Aren’t we being a little hypocritical here, Member from USA.
Let’s compare the Russian “invasion” of Crimea to .. let’s randomly pick say the US invasion of Iraq. How many lives were lost in the Russian invasion of Crimea? How many bullets were fired?
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
That doesn’t answer the question. The US has not made any commitments on how it would respond to the PRC attacking Taiwan.
Many Americans did not support the invasion of Iraq. Approximately zero Americans support the annexation of Iraqi territory.Aren’t we being a little hypocritical here, Member from USA.
Let’s compare the Russian “invasion” of Crimea to .. let’s randomly pick say the US invasion of Iraq. How many lives were lost in the Russian invasion of Crimea? How many bullets were fired?
The question is moot as it is the US that encourages Taiwan to declare independence via various hard (arms shipments, visit by Pelosi etc) and soft (US state & arms manufacturers funding a zillion “think tanks” like ASPI that demonise China) provocative actions. So it seems the US wants a war with China. According to reports, the majority of Taiwanese people want the status quo to continue.
And yet George W Bush managed to get re-elected AFTER the invasion of Iraq?
There is de-facto illegal annexation of territory via US bases in Iraq and Syria against the wishes of the host country.
Iraq has voted to expel US troops. Whether they'll actually be kicked out is far from clear
When Iraq's parliament voted to expel American troops from the country Sunday, it was an apparent bid by the government to extract the country from an escalating US-Iran proxy war. What comes next is far from clear.
amp.cnn.com
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Aren’t we being a little hypocritical here, Member from USA.
Let’s compare the Russian “invasion” of Crimea to .. let’s randomly pick say the US invasion of Iraq. How many lives were lost in the Russian invasion of Crimea? How many bullets were fired?
And if you cared to read earlier posts, you would see I never defended the invasion of Iraq and saw it as a mistake/wrong.
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Daniel in SD
(supervised)
Yes, it is obvious that you think the US will be responsible for the PRC attacking Taiwan (just as you think that US is responsible for Russia invading Ukraine). Apparently no country in the world has any agency except the United States. The question was what @Electroman, who stated that China is an "existential danger", thinks we should do when that happens.The question is moot as it is the US that encourages Taiwan to declare independence via various hard (arms shipments, visit by Pelosi etc) and soft (US state & arms manufacturers funding a zillion “think tanks” like ASPI that demonise China) provocative actions. So it seems the US wants a war with China. According to reports, the majority of Taiwanese people want the status quo to continue.
And yet George W Bush managed to get re-elected AFTER the invasion of Iraq?
There is de-facto illegal annexation of territory via US bases in Iraq and Syria against the wishes of the host country.
Iraq has voted to expel US troops. Whether they'll actually be kicked out is far from clear
When Iraq's parliament voted to expel American troops from the country Sunday, it was an apparent bid by the government to extract the country from an escalating US-Iran proxy war. What comes next is far from clear.
Let me play this a different way and see how this rhymes with you:
If Cuba an independent sovereign nation decides they want to be a full blown communist country and moves towards a strong diplomatic and military alliance with Russia (or CPC) opening its borders to military bases, the western US frauds in the name of "democracy and freedom" and their minions gets no say whatsover about that. Simple as that.
I will tell you what US would do. In a blink of an eye, missiles will be raining down on Havana and ground troops will be entering Cuban shores, long before the ink is dry.
Replace Cuba-Russia against US, with Taiwan-US against China, or with Sri Lanka-China against India - you would get the same reaction from the closest big neighbor. The bigger neighbor is not going to be twiddling their thumbs as their immediate vicinity is being gobbled up by enemy forces through coercion and diplomacy.
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
I think the US should take that deal. If we put a military base in Ukraine then Russia can put a base in Cuba.
There is chatter about Russia reopening their base in Cuba so we may get to see if you're right.
If only you admitting your mistake can bring back a million dead Iraqis, millions more refugees who made/are making their way to Europe & North America (and as a side benefit, stops far-right politicians coming to power off the backs of “illegal” black/brown refugees from West Asia & Africa )
Taiwanese people have agency. They are for maintaining the status quo, which means no invasion (*). But US doesn’t want to listen to the Taiwanese people.
Also, how is PRC “attacking” Taiwan when the US officially acknowledges that Taiwan is part of China? They are merely maintaining their territorial integrity just like Ukraine is. You can’t have it both ways.
(*) PRC’s official policy on Taiwan invasion circa 2005:
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