Well, at the beginning of the war the US was quite open about its objectives: inflict the maximum of military pain on Russia, while not losing any US soldiers, and additionally it costs only a fraction of the Afghanistan fiasco. Obviously all that lofty rhetoric about the international order and the fight for democracy sounds so much nicer.
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Russia/Ukraine conflict
- Thread starter amolina
- Start date
While I would like to agree I don't think the war is necessarily over when/if Ukraine frees all occupied areas including Crimea. If Russia has the will and the means it can essentially bomb Ukraine from long distance for an indefinite time unless Ukraine has either defenses against such weapons or weapons with equal range. Therefore it seems to me that the war ends only when Russia loses the will or ability to wage war against Ukraine.
Another load of twaddle. Ukraine was quite happy about all the gas that Germany received from Russia, as the pipeline fees were easy money for their corrupt politicians and oligarchs. Loss of revenue was the reason for their opposition to Nord Stream 2, not opposition to the delivery of Russian gas (which they used themselves). Why don't you reveal where you are from and the we look at where your country is getting its energy from?
Only way this War will end, is if Putin withdraws their troops and signs a document recognizing Ukraine's right to exist as a soverign country. Right now he does not want to do that.
When you start a War, you are in a War.
When you start a War, you are in a War.
Why am I not surprised? You make a lot of claims without evidence, yet others are supposed to do your legwork?
Military support for Ukraine | Federal Government
War in Ukraine: This list provides an overview of Germany’s lethal and non-lethal military support for Ukraine.
www.bundesregierung.de
Infographic: The Countries Committing the Most Aid to Ukraine
This chart shows the countries which have committed the most aid to Ukraine, by type, from January 2022 to January 2024.
www.statista.com
This data doesn't even include the expenditure for 1 million refugees from Ukraine, which will exceed 10 billion € p.a.
Doggydogworld
Active Member
"It would be folly to assess Russia's military as a beaten or broken force".
Well said. Let's hope some of the commenters here take this to heart and tone down their "verge of collapse" narrative.
Ukrainian stands ready to recapture Kreminna and Svatove, but the weather will not cooperate. Too much cloudiness and precip for the ground to dry out, but not cold enough for it to freeze. A bunch of tanks might have helped. At least they're finally en route.
I support sending F-16s (and longer range missiles, etc.) to Ukraine. The sooner Ukraine is able to expel Russia the better for all involved. Especially for Russia, who finds itself pouring blood and treasure into dictator Putin's blunder. But I do wish Zelensky had waited a couple weeks after the tank deal before making a lot of noise about other weapon systems.
bkp_duke
Well-Known Member
Why am I not surprised? You make a lot of claims without evidence, yet others are supposed to do your legwork?
Military support for Ukraine | Federal Government
War in Ukraine: This list provides an overview of Germany’s lethal and non-lethal military support for Ukraine.
Infographic: The Countries Committing the Most Aid to Ukraine
This chart shows the countries which have committed the most aid to Ukraine, by type, from January 2022 to January 2024.
This data doesn't even include the expenditure for 1 million refugees from Ukraine, which will exceed 10 billion € p.a.
Ah, and YOU like personal attacks over facts.
Your OWN link there proves my point that you quoted.
Poland - higher % of GDP to Ukraine than Germany (0.50 vs. 0.14). Absolute military $$$ donations had been higher until recently (*and if you look at the blue bar for Germany and Poland, they are about equal).
CONSIDERING THEY ARE THE LARGEST ECONOMY IN THE EU - GERMANY HAS LAGGED CONSIDERABLY IN SUPPORT TO UKRAINE. Probably because they were afraid Russia would turn off the fossil fuel spigot. It's only after that actually happened that they ramped up their military aid. That is an undisputed FACT.
And the USA . . . we donated more in terms of both GDP AND absolute $$$. And I still think we should donate MORE.
RobStark
Well-Known Member
The Abrams was designed to fight the Soviets in the Fulda Gap not the mudfields of Ukraine.
In a confrontation between NATO and the Warsaw Pact you are forced to show all your cards. In a proxy war in Ukraine you are not.
Your figures obviously don't contain the expenditure for refugees. One million refugees with full social benefits that's in excess of 10 billion € p.a. How many refugees have the US and the UK taken in? Those figures are negligible.
Additionally, these figures also don't include the contributions to the huge EU aid package.
They also don't contain compensation demands by countries that have donated materiel to Ukraine, e.g. Poland. Poland crows a lot about its support for Ukraine, then it knocks on the doors in Brussels and Berlin to demand compensation. They donated their Soviet junk to Ukraine and went ballistic when Germany didn't want to replace those with the latest Leopard 2 A7.
Sure, the US doesn't want to show its cards, yet others are supposed to do so?
I don't know if anyone saw this but I found it profound. On Netflix David Letterman went to Kiev and actually interviewed Zelensky.
One take away was that if Putin quits or dies the war is over. In addition the humor and heart of these individuals is enormous.
I feel sorry for the Russians as I do for anyone with the alcoholic disease.
One take away was that if Putin quits or dies the war is over. In addition the humor and heart of these individuals is enormous.
I feel sorry for the Russians as I do for anyone with the alcoholic disease.
bkp_duke
Well-Known Member
And Poland has over 30% more refugees than Germany, if apples are apples then those figures don't include Poland's expenditures on them either. That pushes the polish number up further, keeping things still on the approximate footing in that graph.
The US has millions of illegal immigrants from the southern border each year. If the Ukrainians can get here, I'm sure we'll take them in.
If you are going to try to make some argument that the Pols haven't "done their fair share" (that's what I get from your argument up there), then that's going to be a steep hill to climb.
In the end, when it's all boiled down, Germany has not done as much as would be expected from an economy of their size. They really didn't do much until Russia (was stupid) and shut off the natural gas to Germany. Other countries have stepped up far better than Germany.
And for the 3rd time, I'll say it again, that's NOT me defending the USA. Even being the biggest donor, I STILL think we should be doing more.
bkp_duke
Well-Known Member
This is just false, and you know it.
1) the US provided Javelins - those prevented Russia from winning in the opening days
2) the US provided HIMARS - those turned the tide in late spring and in summer and allowed the Ukrainians to take back vast swaths of territory.
3) Germany didn't want to send Leopards unless the US sent M1Ax tanks, so the US said they would send tanks.
The US spearheaded both of those, and was the "big donor" overall.
There are some thing, like Uranium armor and F22 stealth fighters that SHOULD NOT fall into even our allies hands at this point. The US remember what happened when we used F-117A planes in Europe (one was shot down in Serbia). That ONE lost plane provided Russia and the Chinese enough information that they were able to reverse-engineer stealth technology.
So, despite what you claim, there is a "balance" that has to be obtained here. Heck, even the Russians have refused to fly their Su-57 planes into the Ukrainian battlefield, instead opting to use them as long-distance bombers and shoot ordinance from within their own territory.
RobStark
Well-Known Member
Germany doesn't have cards. They spend virtually nothing on high tech weapons. They haven't spend the agreed upon 2% of GDP on defense since the Cold War. Most of the money spent on German defense is a job creation scheme.
France does have cards. If they held back something for that specific reason then I would have the same amount of understanding. Which is not very much.
Germany delivered the Panzerhaubitze 2000, widely considered to be the most advanced howitzer of NATO forces, it also delivered IRIS-T, a brand new, advanced air defence system. Obviously these can't compete with that old tin can M113, that the US donated so generously.
As regards "generously", I wonder how much of these US weapons deliveries are in fact the old "lend lease program", which requires Ukraine to pay for those for decades to come.
bkp_duke
Well-Known Member
OK, now the hyperbole has just hit stratospheric levels. You are cherry-picking unique little items to try to make a one-sided argument.
Germany delivered 12 Panz 2000s. Thank you, useful, but a dozen isn't going to turn the tide of the war. The US donated >300 to date (quick google search, NY Times as search) M777 155mm cannons, AND setup servicing facilities in Poland so if the Ukrainians get them back over the boarder, we'll happily refurbish the barrels so that they can keep on using them. .
While those M113 may not be state of the art, we donated 200 of them, in short order. 477 MRAPs, 1200 Humvees, etc.
Ukraine Converts $21.9 Billion In U.S. Military Surplus Into Fearsome Force
Doubters want you to believe $21.9 billion in military aid is a lot, when, in fact, it's mostly cast-off gear that the U.S. was already sending to the scrapyard.
www.forbes.com
And, let's be honest here, Russia is having problems with all this NATO "Second String" gear that Ukraine is getting. If an battalion of M1A1/2 tanks shows up on the battlefield, they will eat Russian tank divisions day and night (especially nigh with their thermal sights).
An informative chart: Aid to Ukraine as a percentage of GDP. Bilateral aid to Ukraine by country GDP 2022 | Statista
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petit_bateau
Active Member
I think we are all frustrated with the overall Western effort.
That said could we please be a little more tolerant regarding each Western nation's path to it's own stupdity; a little more charitable towards each other; and of course do our best within our own reach to assist Ukraine. Bitching against each other isn't going to help Ukraine in an operationally material manner.
Sharing and creating a common understanding of what is the real overall situation, and ensuring that is more widely understood within the general population over both the short and the long term is one of the most useful things we can do. That common picture and common goal are difficult to maintain unless we are mature critics, yet supportive of each other. The most important thing for the West is to have strategic patience to get Ukraine through this Russian invasion and to a better place afterwards. Everything we can do to move that effort forwards should get our attention, not the other stuff.
(And I'm just as disappointed as anyone else in the very parsimoniously calibrated response of the UK, though I would expect no more or no less than - literally - my own cohort in formulating that as a balanced UK policy response in the immediate circumstances. That doesn't mean I either like it, approve of it, or think it is a good place to be in.)
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
As I understand it, Ukraine would like some 180 Western jets. Jets can also be used to shoot down incoming missiles and drones. I'm also guessing that those jets can take out every surface ship in the Dictators Black Sea navy. And when those are gone Ukraine can start going after the subs and the places where the Dictator reloads his subs. Then I'm guessing a couple of well places Patriot batteries (or some such) can do at least something to counter those ballistic missiles.
But if Ukraine gets rid of every Dictator-minion on Ukrainian soil, then that hopefully opens up for the collapse of the Dictator himself. And that could put an end to this war. I'm not saying that it's a sure thing, but at least there's a chance.
