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Russia/Ukraine conflict

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Thanks for the reply. I’m not up enough on how the American system works but I do understand that the American congress does carry a lot of weight. I am less clear on how presidential vetoes work so not sure if he/she can just stop shipments and trade to another country.

Hopefully NATO members and EU members are discussing the possibilities of a Trump, Putin and Kim Jong Un alliance. No idea how likely that is but two of those recently got together to discuss matters, and trump is an admirer of both of them, and he represents pretty much half of the US populace.

Weird times we live in.

The president can veto anything Congress passes. But if Congress can come up with a 2/3 majority they can override the veto. There may be enough votes in Congress to override a veto on Ukraine support, though it would be close.

Trump's support is not up to 50%. He did get a bit less than 48% in the last election.
 
I'd like to request some help from the group on finding the truth about an assertion by a good friend of mine who monitors news of the war daily. It is not anything about the current discussions around whether Starlink was covering coastline of Crimea or not.

My friend asserted that some Ukrainian soldiers were killed in a battle with Russian forces due to Musk withdrawing Starlink service from the battle zone without warning Ukraine government in advance.

I've tried searching the web for information on such a claim but all that comes up is about the latest Isaacson Crimea controversy. Has anyone come across sources reporting something like this in the past year? Thanks in advance for any assistance.
 
A number of Russian scientists published a document a few weeks ago with their recommendations for the war. Most of it reads like fantasy advocating Russia do things it cannot physically do, but it does highlight where the thinking of the Russian elites are. They want to depopulate Ukraine, turn the Ukrainians into slave labor in Siberia, and nuke Poland expecting the rest of the NATO to do nothing.

It's a chilling read
Thread by @mfphhh on Thread Reader App
 
My friend asserted that some Ukrainian soldiers were killed in a battle with Russian forces due to Musk withdrawing Starlink service from the battle zone without warning Ukraine government in advance.
I am confident that is yet another lie about Musk. These lies have spread like wildfire. Believe it or not his biographer, Isaacson, repeated a similar lie during an MSNBC interview and had to be corrected.

I've been following the controversy closely. AFAIK, Musk never withdrew Starlink coverage for Ukraine and never threatened to withdraw it. His great "sin" was that when a low level underling he never heard of asked him to extend coverage to Crimea, he said no. Of course when Musk tried to get out of the control loop by asking for a contract with the Pentagon, he was harshly criticized and a bunch of lies about him threatening to take away Starlink from Ukraine were spread.

With all the people who have been lying about Starlink in Ukraine in order to smear Musk, if there was actual proof of something like what your friend claims then it would not be hard to find. I could not find any well before Isaacson hit the air waves. Some of my friends asked me about it last year when the lies about Musk threatening to cut off Starlink were spread so I tried to dig down and make sure what I told my friends was true.

This is a classic technique from political fighting: attack your opponent's strength. Elon should be hailed as a hero for providing Starlink to Ukraine so quickly. Unfortunately, a bunch of lies and innuendo have made him into a villain for it. My heart breaks a little because Musk and others may now have to think twice before rushing in to help people in need. We should praise people when they do good and criticize them when they do bad. Not the other way around as we see here.

[Sorry for the repetition. If false claims and innuendo are not debunked then they just fuel the spread of lies.]
 
My friend asserted that some Ukrainian soldiers were killed in a battle with Russian forces due to Musk withdrawing Starlink service from the battle zone without warning Ukraine government in advance.
Musk never activate starlink in Crimea as Crimea was under sanction by US. The only way Elon would have been able to activate it in Crimea was if he had gotten an order from Biden.

Source:
 
A number of Russian scientists published a document a few weeks ago with their recommendations for the war. Most of it reads like fantasy advocating Russia do things it cannot physically do, but it does highlight where the thinking of the Russian elites are. They want to depopulate Ukraine, turn the Ukrainians into slave labor in Siberia, and nuke Poland expecting the rest of the NATO to do nothing.

It's a chilling read
Thread by @mfphhh on Thread Reader App

Is that a credible source? Looking into other posts from pedro suggests he's just making stuff up. He's trying to make russia look bad, but misinformation is bad either way.

I'm sure there are goofballs in Ruzzian 'think-tanks' that believe nuking Poland should be a good step, but I seriously doubt anyone in the Kremlin has any false ideas about NATO not responding. As demonstrated by lack of nuclear escalation for numerous weapons provided to Ukraine, and direct attacks on Russia and in Crimea.


Edit: seems like it comes from this report originally. Still seems sketchy to me. It looks like a real report, but in today's world, it's very hard to say. It could also just be more nuclear saber rattling.

 
Last edited:
Is that a credible source? Looking into other posts from pedro suggests he's just making stuff up. He's trying to make russia look bad, but misinformation is bad either way.

I'm sure there are goofballs in Ruzzian 'think-tanks' that believe nuking Poland should be a good step, but I seriously doubt anyone in the Kremlin has any false ideas about NATO not responding. As demonstrated by lack of nuclear escalation for numerous weapons provided to Ukraine, and direct attacks on Russia and in Crimea.


Edit: seems like it comes from this report originally. Still seems sketchy to me. It looks like a real report, but in today's world, it's very hard to say. It could also just be more nuclear saber rattling.


It was linked from an account my partner has been following for a while. Somebody she's found reliable. KvotheTheArcane.

I have seen similar snippets of the same stuff here and there. There seems to be a mindset among at least a segment of the Russian population that believe Russia is much more capable than it is. But then I've also found in reading people's opinions about this war that a large number of people think it works like a video game. The logistics of war is a vastly complex subject, but unless you're really into geeking out, most people never bother to learn how it works unless they are forced to.

Little details can lead to large results. Not having proper boots could cripple an army. Not having enough bolts could cripple an army. There is the poem

"For Want of a Nail
For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the message was lost.
For want of a message the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail."

Turned that into a quote for some reason...

People see that Russia is bigger than Ukraine and can't understand why Russia didn't crush Ukraine in three days. I looked at the size of the army Russia was gathering in the weeks before the war started and knew they didn't have enough forces to do the job if Ukraine decided to put up a fight. Most people, even some military analysts thought it was going to be a Russian cake walk.

As a number of people I have seen have said: amateurs study tactics, pros study logistics.

There are quite a few people in the Russian media and "experts" who don't really understand the problem and are proposing pie in the sky solutions which have no basis in reality. Another thing that's going on is these people may be cranking out these documents to please "dear leader" with rosy plans for their glorious victory in the war they can't win.
 
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FWIW: Musk-Trump commentary gets old (16 months out for any US Political change and quite frankly getting US Congress to a 2/3 vote in this contested political environment will be impossible).....can't this topic stay on track by discussing the state of War?

Ru moved some paratroopers into Robotyne recently which could impact the progress until mud time.

 
I have a feeling the moderators are not going to be happy when they next check in...


Moderating this thread...


frogs_in_a__wheelbarrow.jpg
 
So interesting times south of Bahkmut. First they wipe out an entire brigade, then they get the command post of a VDV brigade just a few miles from the railbed that has been the scene of so much fighting. That brigade was stationed a bit closer to bahkmut. Supposedly the force concentration here in Bahkmut is very high, up to 50k troops well over 100 tanks, etc. Most of the VDV brigades are there, and ISW did an entire special writeup on the success Ukraine has had fixing russian elite troops here now that Wagner is no more. Almost the entire VDV is in Bahkmut. The equivalent to the US putting our airbone divisions all in a small area with a collapsing flank. Very interesting and it is no surprise that they fired a general for speaking out and then brought him right back to fix things.
 
as I continued my readings I saw this thread and since it was related to the prior post I thought I'd put up a link

 
So interesting times south of Bahkmut. First they wipe out an entire brigade, then they get the command post of a VDV brigade just a few miles from the railbed that has been the scene of so much fighting. That brigade was stationed a bit closer to bahkmut. Supposedly the force concentration here in Bahkmut is very high, up to 50k troops well over 100 tanks, etc. Most of the VDV brigades are there, and ISW did an entire special writeup on the success Ukraine has had fixing russian elite troops here now that Wagner is no more. Almost the entire VDV is in Bahkmut. The equivalent to the US putting our airbone divisions all in a small area with a collapsing flank. Very interesting and it is no surprise that they fired a general for speaking out and then brought him right back to fix things.

ISW post if anyone is interested
 
People see that Russia is bigger than Ukraine and can't understand why Russia didn't crush Ukraine in three days. I looked at the size of the army Russia was gathering in the weeks before the war started and knew they didn't have enough forces to do the job if Ukraine decided to put up a fight. Most people, even some military analysts thought it was going to be a Russian cake walk.

As a number of people I have seen have said: amateurs study tactics, pros study logistics.

There are quite a few people in the Russian media and "experts" who don't really understand the problem and are proposing pie in the sky solutions which have no basis in reality. Another thing that's going on is these people may be cranking out these documents to please "dear leader" with rosy plans for their glorious victory in the war they can't win.

Speaking of logistics, here is a Times interview with Major General Tim Cross who discusses the Ukrainian approach of targeting Orc logistics. It's not really in depth, but I think it's interesting that Cross has switched over to giving the Ukrainians a chance of winning. Previously he, like nearly all western analysts, felt they had no chance against the Russian economy and production.


To that point, I'd like to make an observation that I haven't seen anywhere else... and therefore is likely to be uninformed speculation from me. YMMV.

I believe that one thing that almost all western analysts are getting wrong is that Russia is not the USSR.

The USSR had the ability to do production, and produce all those artillery barrels that have been used up or destroyed. Russia, not so much. USSR was corrupt, but not at the level of Russia, where literally everything that can be stolen will be.

USSR had the ability to send working probes to the moon, launch manned missions that don't leak propellant. Russia has lost the ability to do space research. The man in charge of the Luna 25 probe was 91 years old- he was the same guy as the original missions. When Luna 25 failed, I think it was not actually an accident that he ingested poisonous mushrooms, because that's Russia. In the USSR they wouldn't be happy, but you don't kill your best scientists for failure.


What I think I am seeing is that Russia is coasting on the fumes of the former USSR. They are using artillery and rockets and tanks from that era, and do not actually have the ability to mount a credible war effort on their own. They had a lot of war stocks in reserve, most of which has already been used in Ukraine. The fight has dragged because of the absolutely massive stocks of land mines they had in reserve.

I also believe that Russia thinks of themselves in the USSR way, and can not clearly see that simply don't have the ability to do what the USSR could do. They cannot believe that their vaunted army could be stopped by Ukraine, and keep hitting their heads on the wall, while Ukraine grinds them up.

It looks like a blind spot for all analysts to me, conflating old theories and old analyses to a corrupt and despotic regime because of geography. IF that is a correct observation, Ukraine can win the war, because Russia has no ability to spin up a stronger war effort, that era is long gone. Outside of theories and analysis, I believe this is what we are seeing on the ground as well- lots and lots of USSR war material and tactics and strategy, including throwing away lives for no reason. But now, without the USSR to back it up.
 
FWIW: Musk-Trump commentary gets old (16 months out for any US Political change and quite frankly getting US Congress to a 2/3 vote in this contested political environment will be impossible).....can't this topic stay on track by discussing the state of War?

Ru moved some paratroopers into Robotyne recently which could impact the progress until mud time.


From all I've read about it, the troops near Robotyne have been starving for supplies for some time. Moving another unit into the region just stresses a supply system that is already stretched to its limits.

It's a desperation move on the part of the Russians. They burned up their reserves fighting the Ukrainians in front of the trenches instead of letting the Ukrainians come to them. Now they don't have the forces to hold their positions.

I agree with the Ukrainian assessments that getting through the 2nd and 3rd line of defenses will be easier than the first. Though the first took most of the summer. They also are expanding their salient to give a safe space in the middle for artillery and HIMARS to operate safely. That will take a few weeks.

Doesn't look like the Russian Rostov-on-Don submarine attacked a few days ago in Sevastopol will ever be returning to service:


A little bondo and some paint and she'll be as good as new...

So interesting times south of Bahkmut. First they wipe out an entire brigade, then they get the command post of a VDV brigade just a few miles from the railbed that has been the scene of so much fighting. That brigade was stationed a bit closer to bahkmut. Supposedly the force concentration here in Bahkmut is very high, up to 50k troops well over 100 tanks, etc. Most of the VDV brigades are there, and ISW did an entire special writeup on the success Ukraine has had fixing russian elite troops here now that Wagner is no more. Almost the entire VDV is in Bahkmut. The equivalent to the US putting our airbone divisions all in a small area with a collapsing flank. Very interesting and it is no surprise that they fired a general for speaking out and then brought him right back to fix things.

The VDV have 4 divisions and 4 independent brigades.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Russian_Airborne_Forces.png

The brigades may look the same size as the divisions, but the divisions are made up of regiments and the brigades are made up of battalions.

These units have been mostly gutted at least once in this war. The bulk of their forces now are troops raised since the war started. Unlike the large mobik formations, the Russians sent their airborne recruits to Belarus to get trained there. So these troops do have at least boot camp level training, which at this point in the war means they are the elite of their ground forces. In real world quality they are mostly green troops with just basic training with a handful of veterans who are trying to whip them into some semblance of the former VDV while in combat. I don't expect it's going very well.

The ChrisO thread is interesting. The Russians are now throwing away their artillery troops on pointless assaults with shovels. It also appears Moscow may not be aware this is going on. Throwing away specialist troops like that is a bad move. Even if they get more guns and/or ammunition, they aren't going to be able to use them because the trained gunners got killed.

It's not difficult to get people who can stuff shells into a gun, but the Russians are still dependent on a guy with a clipboard and a calculator to calculate the shot. Lose those guys and Russia's inaccurate artillery will become hopelessly inaccurate. Game over for the most effective arm of their ground forces.

Speaking of logistics, here is a Times interview with Major General Tim Cross who discusses the Ukrainian approach of targeting Orc logistics. It's not really in depth, but I think it's interesting that Cross has switched over to giving the Ukrainians a chance of winning. Previously he, like nearly all western analysts, felt they had no chance against the Russian economy and production.


To that point, I'd like to make an observation that I haven't seen anywhere else... and therefore is likely to be uninformed speculation from me. YMMV.

I believe that one thing that almost all western analysts are getting wrong is that Russia is not the USSR.

The USSR had the ability to do production, and produce all those artillery barrels that have been used up or destroyed. Russia, not so much. USSR was corrupt, but not at the level of Russia, where literally everything that can be stolen will be.

USSR had the ability to send working probes to the moon, launch manned missions that don't leak propellant. Russia has lost the ability to do space research. The man in charge of the Luna 25 probe was 91 years old- he was the same guy as the original missions. When Luna 25 failed, I think it was not actually an accident that he ingested poisonous mushrooms, because that's Russia. In the USSR they wouldn't be happy, but you don't kill your best scientists for failure.


What I think I am seeing is that Russia is coasting on the fumes of the former USSR. They are using artillery and rockets and tanks from that era, and do not actually have the ability to mount a credible war effort on their own. They had a lot of war stocks in reserve, most of which has already been used in Ukraine. The fight has dragged because of the absolutely massive stocks of land mines they had in reserve.

I also believe that Russia thinks of themselves in the USSR way, and can not clearly see that simply don't have the ability to do what the USSR could do. They cannot believe that their vaunted army could be stopped by Ukraine, and keep hitting their heads on the wall, while Ukraine grinds them up.

It looks like a blind spot for all analysts to me, conflating old theories and old analyses to a corrupt and despotic regime because of geography. IF that is a correct observation, Ukraine can win the war, because Russia has no ability to spin up a stronger war effort, that era is long gone. Outside of theories and analysis, I believe this is what we are seeing on the ground as well- lots and lots of USSR war material and tactics and strategy, including throwing away lives for no reason. But now, without the USSR to back it up.

The cold war USSR was much stronger than Russia is now. Not only was the population double in the USSR, they also had the countries of Eastern Europe in their sphere. Soviet weapons were made in many places outside of Russia, including Ukraine and Eastern Europe. All that production capacity was lost when the USSR fell apart.

They retained some of it by keeping some countries in their orbit, but the control was more indirect that it used to be. Between the kleptocrats running Running the new Russian empire and the economy being much smaller, a lot of military production capacity within Russia withered and died. They kept some industries going, more for the export market than for their own consumption. Their own military only got new equipment when there were enough foreign orders to buy some things for the Russian military from the profits. Then a lot of it got stolen.

Russia is still a large country and if they decided they were going to get rid of the kleptocrats and turn the country into a giant North Korea, they could build out their military production and draft all young men into the military, turning the country into a state on a constant war footing. They would risk regime ending rebellion getting there and they can't do it while fighting the war, but this is one scenario for a post war Russia that we need to avoid. The world would be less safe with a fully armed Russia.

This would eventually collapse because Russia doesn't have the youth to keep this up for more than a few decades, but we could see a tense few decades if this happens.