SAE J1772 DC (Combo) Connector Adapter for Model S

[renim]

Can someone point out in the CPT regulation that this is anything beyond public usage stations and how they define it. I doubt they could ban a private installation of propriotory tech. Just dictate all SC locations as private property and be done with it... The way I see it is they want to make CCS prevail in new installations that qualify fir the requirement. If you have beyond that non compliant installations (i.e. SC-s), then who cares...

page 3 under LEGAL ELEMENTS OF THE PROPOSAL http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=COM:2013:0018:FIN:EN:PDF

'This proposal requires establishing a minimum number of recharging points forelectric vehicles by each Member State, with 10% of them being publicly accessible. It defines minimum numbers per Member States, based on the national targets forelectric vehicles already set in many Member States, and an extrapolation to the total number to be expected for the whole Union. A larger number of electric vehicles canbe expected in Member States with a higherrate of urbanisation, as electric vehicles will be deployed predominantly in urban agglomerations, due to range limitations, and the large benficial impact on reducing pollutant emissions and noise. Electric vehicles further need to have at least two recharging points per vehicles available for full recharging, and a certain number of publicly accessible recharging points forintermittent topping-up recharging to overcome range anxiety. '

The CPT regulation covers the private low power recharging points (ie domestic etc) it also covers publicly accessible points. (Incidentially, The CPT directive actually is L1 centric and could be fulfilled without fast DC charge) The intent of the legisation is to ban non CCS DC fast chargers, that is Tesla Supercharger and Chademo, even Mennekes DC Mid will probably be illegal but I can't confirm that.

page 14 also has 'Member States shall ensure that the equipment for slow and fast recharging points as set out in Annex III.1.1 and Annex III.1.2 shall be available on fair, resasonable and non-discriminatory terms.' I would interpret that while Tesla Supercharger is fair and resonable, that it could be construed to be discriminatory to others unless it includes at least provision for occasional use and payment by competitors.

page 12 has
'(2) "Recharging point" means a slow recharging point or a fast recharging point or an installation for the physical exchange of a battery of an electric vehicle.
(3) "Slow recharging point" means a recharging point that allows for a direct supply of electricity to an electric vehicle with a power of less than or equal to 22 kW.
(4) "Fast recharging point" means a recharging point that allows for a direct supply of electricity to an electric vehicle with a power of more than 22 kW.
(5) "Publicly accessible recharging or refuelling point" means a recharging or refuelling point which provides non-discriminatory access to the users '

to me this betrays a bias against Mennekes AC 22kW. If 22kW is slow but 25kW is fast, then the authors seems to have a grudge against what is probably the most pragmatic and well supported mid range standard (ie ZOE, Tesla, Volvo etc). In later responses to the CPT proposal, slow recharging point is changed to say normal recharging point, but the CPT link is the original proposal.

Hypothetically, a member state could comply with the directive by requiring all new electrical work to include a L1 charging point at parking locations, similar to how plumbers may be required to install tempering valves is they do any plumbing work on a property......The directive leaves methods for achieving the quota to the countries, funding is not the issue or even addressed, nor is any ratio between L1 chargers or fast AC chargers or fast DC chargers, just a minimum of publicly accessible points and a minimum of recharging points, with about 90% of recharging points expected to be private.

 

[stopcrazypp]

About page 14 talking about fair/reasonable/non-discriminatory, it's talking about equipment manufacturers that sell chargers. It's not talking about private/public chargers (for example you can't expect all home or work chargers to be made available to general public use).

Hypothetically, a member state could comply with the directive by requiring all new electrical work to include a L1 charging point at parking locations, similar to how plumbers may be required to install tempering valves is they do any plumbing work on a property...

Good possibility that will happen. NY is doing something similar. The result will be Tesla adding more charging points. It's not really banning any ones though, so I think the supercharger network should be safe. Plus it's not retroactive, so existing chargers are not affected.

If there's really banning of non-Mennekes chargers, then I think CHAdeMO will be equally impacted. But I think the way it was worded previously, it's just that chargers with CHAdeMO (even if dual standard) would not meet the quota for the countries and that would hugely impact CHAdeMO adoption (as countries would focus on promoting Mennekes-only chargers). That was why there was the need to add CHAdeMO in explicitly. However, the recent amendment changed it to say that if the charger has CCS at minimum, it would meet the quota.

with about 90% of recharging points expected to be private.

I think that covers mostly home or work recharging points.

 

[renim]

Can someone point out in the CPT regulation that this is anything beyond public usage stations and how they define it. I doubt they could ban a private installation of propriotory tech. Just dictate all SC locations as private property and be done with it... The way I see it is they want to make CCS prevail in new installations that qualify fir the requirement. If you have beyond that non compliant installations (i.e. SC-s), then who cares...

There are 3 differing L1 plugs in europe, some cars could plug into any off these three if they have the appropiate connection cable. ie a Type 2 to Type 1 cable or Type 3 to Type 2 cable etc. The directive's intent is to standardise onto Type 2 recharging points. No provision seemed to exist to exclude future private installations. Similar thinking for DC fast charge.

...If there's really banning of non-Mennekes chargers, then I think CHAdeMO will be equally impacted. But I think the way it was worded previously, it's just that chargers with CHAdeMO (even if dual standard) would not meet the quota for the countries and that would hugely impact CHAdeMO adoption (as countries would focus on promoting Mennekes-only chargers). That was why there was the need to add CHAdeMO in explicitly. However, the recent amendment changed it to say that if the charger has CCS at minimum, it would meet the quota.

Unfortunately, I don't see anywhere that this is limited to meeting quota's only. I do agree that it is bad for Chademo, but there are distintives that make it worse for Supercharger. Further (and overly pedantic of me, I see it banning Mennekes mid charging over 22kW DC)

Article 4 Electricity supply for transport page 14
6. All publicly accessible recharging points for electric vehicles shall be equipped with intelligent metering systems as defined in Article 2(28) of Directive 2012/27/EU and respect the requirements laid down in Article 9(2) of that Directive.
7. Annex I.1 (h) and the last subparagraph of Annex I.2 of Directive 2009/72/EC shall apply to the consumption data and the metering system of the recharging point for electric vehicles.
8. Member States shall not prohibit electric vehicle users from buying electricity from any electricity supplier regardless of the Member State in which the supplier is registered. Member States shall ensure that consumers have the right to contract electricity simultaneously with several suppliers so that electricity supply for an electric vehicle can be contracted separately.

Point 6 & 7 would be embedded into all future publicly accessible chargers (fast or slow, Chademo/43kW AC/Combo/or even a 3kW Mennekes etc) Common sense would indicate that free charging is not burdened, but I don't see explicit recongnition for that. Actually I see intent that the proposal has no financial impact on revenue (for instance last page of document) Tesla's free for life is not the reality the directive's authors were expecting. The directive's authors are insisting all EV charging comply to their vision. There could be a problem

Legislation has a habit of resulting in some perverse outcomes, that is outcomes that are the opposite of the intent of the leglisation.
It does not take much imagination to imagine Audi lawyers using this legislation to miniminse market share losses to Tesla...

Real Politick is such that together Chademo and TeslaSupercharger in EU wide deployment, makes the long term existense of each other politically acceptable. Its similar to how Tesla at the premium market and Nissan at the economy market provides support for Californian ZEV mandates. It would've been much more difficult if only one the cars was on sale.

 

[Apoclyps]

so how long before someone creates a SC adapter so that they can plug in their non-Tesla car into the SC network?

 

[Cottonwood]

so how long before someone creates a SC adapter so that they can plug in their non-Tesla car into the SC network?

A very interesting question. The physical connector is probably easy; the real challenge is reverse engineering the signaling protocol. Wonder how serious Tesla was in their authorization; did they get serious and use a cryptographically secure algorithm?

 

[stopcrazypp]

Unfortunately, I don't see anywhere that this is limited to meeting quota's only.

Sure, it is not explicitly limited to meeting the quota, but laid out hard goals of this whole directive is meeting certain quotas. Nothing stops any country from banning specific standards (and this directive doesn't change that), but on the other hand it doesn't explicitly ban them either, but rather open-endedly leaves enforcement action up to the member states. This gives Tesla (and CHAdeMO) room to do lobbying. And I believe it has already been amended. If you look at page 35 here, the Annex III which describes EV charge standards has been changed:

Direct Current (DC) high power recharging points for electric vehicles shall be equipped, for interoperability purposes, at least with connectors of Type "Combo 2" as described in standard EN62196-3.

http://register.consilium.europa.eu...lium.europa.eu/pd/en/13/st17/st17004.en13.pdf

The "at least" part was not there before, but now it's added, so all Tesla has to do in the worse case is add a "Combo 2" socket that no one will use (given the network is not public).

I do agree that it is bad for Chademo, but there are distintives that make it worse for Supercharger. Further (and overly pedantic of me, I see it banning Mennekes mid charging over 22kW DC)

I don't really see the disincentives that make it worse for Superchargers vs CHAdeMO, can you point out some examples? Again, I don't really see anywhere in the directive that would force Tesla to offer charging to non-Tesla vehicles. I think Tesla's superchargers fit under the "private" side.

 

[Mario Kadastik]

From what I can see from the quotes the requirements are for member states to reach a certain level. That level doesn't have to include Tesla superchargers at all so I don't see how Tesla superchargers would be disfavored, banned or limited in any way. If Tesla funds them themselves and it's for private use by Tesla vehicles, then it doesn't fall under this directive. The countries can go on with their odd standards and plugs, but it doesn't touch Tesla. Just the countries don't benefit from Tesla installing superchargers.

And with regard to SC access I'd assume it's cryptography backed considering that a software company like Tesla won't make such a rookie mistake. If someone steals the keys from some Model S, that's another matter.

 

[matbl]

I seriously think a CCS adapter is necessary for at least Europe.

One of the big energy companies in northern Europe (Fortum) is currently installing DC fast chargers along major routes in Norway, Sweden and Finland. I checked one out today and it is DC only, Chademo and CCS (Euro type). So although it provides easy access to 50 KW charging, it can't be used by Tesla owners.
When the Chademo adapter becomes available it can of course be used but I would really prefer a CCS adapter since it shouldn't need as much logic. In fact it might only be cables but I don't know entirely.
So this is not something to wait and see about. This charging point is up and running now.

 

[Hybris]

CCS adapter

we need a CCS adapter for europe. anyone know if tesla is planning that?

 

[Hybris]

I seriously think a CCS adapter is necessary for at least Europe.

One of the big energy companies in northern Europe (Fortum) is currently installing DC fast chargers along major routes in Norway, Sweden and Finland. I checked one out today and it is DC only, Chademo and CCS (Euro type). So although it provides easy access to 50 KW charging, it can't be used by Tesla owners.
When the Chademo adapter becomes available it can of course be used but I would really prefer a CCS adapter since it shouldn't need as much logic. In fact it might only be cables but I don't know entirely.
So this is not something to wait and see about. This charging point is up and running now.

100% agree!!! We need CCS!

 

[Mario Kadastik]

we need a CCS adapter for europe. anyone know if tesla is planning that?

During the EU trip of Elon and JB it was asked and JB said that they are finalizing the CHAdeMO adapter and that will be out soon, but right now they consider CCS non-existent and feel that they have better stuff to do with their limited engineering resources. Once the standard becomes more widely available and is looking like a decent coverage and therefore would be reasonable, then they can do it. There's nothing stopping them beyond manpower needs and right now they don't feel that it would be best spent on the adapter.

So I'd guess no adapter in 2014, if CCS picks up and we get wide enough coverage they might rethink. But I think it's a minor issue really. Do you know many CCS stations that do NOT have a CHAdeMO plug there too? I think most new stations that are buit are built CCS + CHAdeMO and never just CCS. Therefore getting the CHAdeMO adapter should be enough for now. I know in Estonia we have over 160 chargers and they are all CHAdeMO + Type-II AC. No concrete plans on CCS as the infrastructure is already there. From what I know for Latvia that is planning to build it this year the stations will be Type-II + CCS + CHAdeMO. And when Björn showed in his video the new green highway chargers it was the CHAdeMO + CCS one with separate Type-II AC as well. So why precisely do we need the CCS again?

 

[matbl]

If I'm not misstaken, a CCS adapter would be much much cheaper since all that is needed is wiring and plastics. And software in the car of course.
Also, in theory CCS can go up to 200KW in power while chademo is stuck at much lower. While the chademo adapter was necesary to do first I don't think they shall stop but inatead continue with a CCS adapter.

 

[scottf200]

If I'm not misstaken, a CCS adapter would be much much cheaper since all that is needed is wiring and plastics.

Hopefully that is true:

 

[widodh]

There already is a topic about this: SAE J1772 DC (Combo) Connector Adapter for Model S

I recommend we continue there

 

[Mario Kadastik]

Scott, those that you are showing are not CCS cables And the simplicity would be in EU I think, for US it'd be a bit more complicated as the port is different (in EU it's Type-II and CCS is basically Type-II + 2 fat DC pins). Second point is that while the standard might go to 200kW, then none of the installations will. At least for a looong time yet. Getting 200kW from the grid is hugely expensive and that's why Tesla uses battery buffering at its sites. Most sites remain at 30-50kW range not because of the protocol, but because of the cost of going beyond that is staggering for operational reasons.

But yes, I think mods should merge the threads.

 

[jackie]

Ecotricity (UK) have just sent out an e-mail message. It includes their plans for CCS support.

"Things are moving at pace with the Electric Highway too.

It was only around the middle of last year that we began to roll out the fast AC and DC chargers and by the end of the year we had installed these ‘Ecotricity pumps’ (as we like to think of them) in half of all motorway services. In February this year we completed the M4 roll out with an Ecotricity pump on every service station from London to Wales. We’ve also begun to double up now, with two pumps in each location, to cope with the additional demand that is coming.

And we’re adding a third standard to the pumps, known as CCS (Combined Charging System) – as used by BMW (the i3) and VW (the eUp and eGolf) – three new cars launched in the last few months which will be able to use the Electric Highway.

By the end of this year we expect to have installed Ecotricity pumps in every single motorway service station in Britain. That should pretty much enable electric car drivers to drive the length and breadth of our country.

There are parts of the country that the motorways don't get too close to of course, and we’re beginning now to roll out the Electric Highway to strategically important A-roads."

So by the end of this year we should have a substantial infrastructure of CCS chargers in the UK.

 

[Mario Kadastik]

But does any one of those "pumps" come with CCS only and no CHAdeMO? If no, then it's another point for not making a CCS adapter and just doing a CHAdeMO one...

 

[widodh]

But does any one of those "pumps" come with CCS only and no CHAdeMO? If no, then it's another point for not making a CCS adapter and just doing a CHAdeMO one...

They will have CCS, CHAdeMO and 63A AC. So yes, the CHAdeMO adapter works just fine.

 

[matbl]

But does any one of those "pumps" come with CCS only and no CHAdeMO? If no, then it's another point for not making a CCS adapter and just doing a CHAdeMO one...

Except that a ccs one should be much cheaper...
And that CCS in the future probably will come in variants well above the chademo 50 kw. And that there probably soon will start to pop up ccs only stations...

 

[Mario Kadastik]

Except that a ccs one should be much cheaper...
And that CCS in the future probably will come in variants well above the chademo 50 kw. And that there probably soon will start to pop up ccs only stations...

Well Tesla basically said that CCS is too new and too infrequent to be worth it. So in a couple of years when it actually has stations enough and there is a real point, then they will do an adapter, but not now.