Charging standards and bickering thereabout

[MP3Mike]

Please look them up before posting, They are NOT electrically the same. The EU CCS-2 adapter is more complex than that, and earlier than IIRC 2018 Tesla models required a physical update to accept that adapter. A Model X I drove in Europe back then had the update scheduled but not installed when I drove it.

CCS1 and CCS2 are electrically identical. I'm not sure why you think something to do with a non-CCS compatible Model X has anything to do with that.

Just like the CCS1 to NACS adapter is passive, the CCS2 to Tesla Type 2 adapter is passive. But for an older EU spec Tesla to be able to use that adpater it required an ECU to be put inline so that the vehicle could talk CCS.

So yes, if the person could use the Tesla CCS1 adapter in North America, they could use the CCS2 to NACS adapter that that person linked to so that they could charge a NA spec Tesla in Europe at CCS2 chargers.

CCS-2 includes the Type 2 connector. CCS-2 includes both AC and DC. That separation between Ac and DC in CCS is exactly why all CCS is so cumbersome.

No, CCS2 does not include AC charging. That would just be using the Mennekes Type 2. I'm pretty sure that the CCS2 spec states that the AC pins must not connect to anything, in fact it says that CCS2 plugs can't have the AC pins. From: Combined Charging System - Wikipedia

For Combo 2 the AC contacts (L1, L2, L3 & N) are completely removed from the connector and therefore the Type 2 portion of the connector has only three contacts remaining – two communication contacts and a protective earth. The vehicle inlet may retain AC contacts to allow non-CCS AC charging.

So note that a car with a CCS2 inlet doesn't have to support AC charging at all. It can, but it isn't required because that isn't part of CCS.

Just like in NA, CCS1 is DC Fast charge, with a partial J1772 connector on top. But it can't AC charge. For that you have to use a J1772 connector/protocol.

 

[unk45]

...
No, CCS2 does not include AC charging. That would just be using the Mennekes Type 2. I'm pretty sure that the CCS2 spec states that the AC pins must not connect to anything, in fact it says that CCS2 plugs can't have the AC pins. From: Combined Charging System - Wikipedia



So note that a car with a CCS2 inlet doesn't have to support AC charging at all. It can, but it isn't required because that isn't part of CCS.

Just like in NA, CCS1 is DC Fast charge, with a partial J1772 connector on top. But it can't AC charge. For that you have to use a J1772 connector/protocol.

In this you're making a seemingly pedantically correct statement that is factually incorrect. CharIN did indeed develop and set standards fro DC charging and is continuing to set standards for V2G, wireless, ultra high capacity, etc, all for DC. So, that much is true...
but wrong because CCS-1 is packaged with the J1772 plug combined while CCS-2 is combined with the Mennekes 2 plug. In fact CCS does include AC, by adopting previously established AC only standards.

The CharIN documentation cost money and is cumbersome. The Wiki, however, is correct:

"The Combined Charging System allows AC charging using the Type 1 and Type 2 connector depending on the geographical region. This charging environment encompasses charging couplers, charging communication, charging stations, the electric vehicle and various functions for the charging process such as load balancing and charge authorization.

Electric vehicles or electric vehicle supply equipment (EVSE) are CCS-capable if they support either AC or DC..."

Many people miss that point but it is right there in plain sight. A look at electrical standards will show that many new standards also incorporate existing related standards. Typical common examples are ubiquitous in connectors, plugs, wiring and load distribution. Without doubt such solutions do often create confusion and/or inefficient solutions.

 

[MP3Mike]

In this you're making a seemingly pedantically correct statement that is factually incorrect.

My main point is that you are 100% wrong in this post:

Please look them up before posting, They are NOT electrically the same. The EU CCS-2 adapter is more complex than that, and earlier than IIRC 2018 Tesla models required a physical update to accept that adapter. A Model X I drove in Europe back then had the update scheduled but not installed when I drove it.

They are electrically identical using only 5 pins: the 2 large DC pins, ground, and two communication pins. No AC pins are in use on a CCS connector.

A CCS1 compatible vehicle can charge at a CCS2 charger with just a passive adapter, because they are electrically identical. On a CCS compatible vehicle a passive adapter can be used to convert between any two of these: NACS, Tesla Type 2, CCS1, and CCS2 to charge at a CCS compatible charger.

And like it says a CCS2 plug can not have AC pins, so you can't not AC charge on a CCS2 charger/connector. (No CCS charger in the world provides AC to a vehicle.) Here is a picture that shows the 4 AC pins not present on a CCS2 connector next to a Type 2 connector:

AC charging requires using a J1772 or Type 2 plug.

 

[GhostSkater]

A CCS1 compatible vehicle can charge at a CCS2 charger with just a passive adapter, because they are electrically identical. On a CCS compatible vehicle a passive adapter can be used to convert between any two of these: NACS, CCS1, and CCS2 to charge at a CCS compatible charger.

Can confirm, here in Brazil people import Teslas from the US, which is "CCS1 protocol", and use a dumb adapter to connect CCS2 to it, so they talk the same language as DC fast charging is concerned

 

[UncaNed]

Boring Friday here on the CCS plug forum, but at least I'll have nightmares of being chased by a gang of these scary looking things tonight:

Edit-

In climate news... I just sold my gas riding lawn mower today.

That's part on Elon's transition mission, so now @GhostSkater 's plugs will be chasing me driving around on electric mowers like these, even:

Also, cheers to the longs.

 

[GSP]

From an electrical/digital protocol point of view, there aren't any differences between CCS1 and CCS2. So a simple "pass through" adapter such as NEW! CCS-2 Fast Charger / European Supercharger Adapter for US Tesla will work.

I am not sure that is true. IIRC the message protocols are different for CCS1 vs. CCS2. An adapter would have to have electronics to translate.

GSP

 

[wws]

I am not sure that is true. IIRC the message protocols are different for CCS1 vs. CCS2. An adapter would have to have electronics to translate.

GSP

See about six posts up for evidence otherwise.

 

[GSP]

See about six posts up for evidence otherwise.

Thanks, that is great info. However, it could be evidence that Tesla's speak both protocols, CCS1 and CCS2.

 

[unk45]

My main point is that you are 100% wrong in this post:



They are electrically identical using only 5 pins: the 2 large DC pins, ground, and two communication pins. No AC pins are in use on a CCS connector.

A CCS1 compatible vehicle can charge at a CCS2 charger with just a passive adapter, because they are electrically identical. On a CCS compatible vehicle a passive adapter can be used to convert between any two of these: NACS, Tesla Type 2, CCS1, and CCS2 to charge at a CCS compatible charger.

And like it says a CCS2 plug can not have AC pins, so you can't not AC charge on a CCS2 charger/connector. (No CCS charger in the world provides AC to a vehicle.) Here is a picture that shows the 4 AC pins not present on a CCS2 connector next to a Type 2 connector:

View attachment 952088

AC charging requires using a J1772 or Type 2 plug.

You persist in arguing semantics , disagreeing with CharIN itself on the issue while repeating precisely the different approaches to AC, which CharIN itself specified inclusion.
Anyway, I give up since the immediate issue is the VW, maybe VAG, adoption of NACS, which is a BIG deal for Taycan, Audi and VW drivers if they’re all included.

 

[Max Plaid]

Please look them up before posting, They are NOT electrically the same. The EU CCS-2 adapter is more complex than that, and earlier than IIRC 2018 Tesla models required a physical update to accept that adapter. A Model X I drove in Europe back then had the update scheduled but not installed when I drove it.

This is correct, I had the update on my previous XP, cost €300 and had some internal wiring adaptations, done by the mobile technician

 

[MP3Mike]

However, it could be evidence that Tesla's speak both protocols, CCS1 and CCS2.

No, there is only one CCS protocol. Just two different physical connectors based on region.

 

[MountainRatMat]

Is this the investing thread or the charging and Cybertruck thread?

You do realize the market is open and it isn't the weekend yet...

 

[petit_bateau]

My main point is that you are 100% wrong in this post:



They are electrically identical using only 5 pins: the 2 large DC pins, ground, and two communication pins. No AC pins are in use on a CCS connector.

A CCS1 compatible vehicle can charge at a CCS2 charger with just a passive adapter, because they are electrically identical. On a CCS compatible vehicle a passive adapter can be used to convert between any two of these: NACS, Tesla Type 2, CCS1, and CCS2 to charge at a CCS compatible charger.

And like it says a CCS2 plug can not have AC pins, so you can't not AC charge on a CCS2 charger/connector. (No CCS charger in the world provides AC to a vehicle.) Here is a picture that shows the 4 AC pins not present on a CCS2 connector next to a Type 2 connector:

View attachment 952088

AC charging requires using a J1772 or Type 2 plug.

eh ?

Surely a CCS2 does not have to be a combo coupler ? And in the common or garden variety the type 2 CCS2 is just the AC pins.

Am I missing something ?

(by the way this charger in our driveway gets used by all sorts of EVs, with nary a problem, here in Europe)

IEC 62196 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[FSDtester#1]

Is this the investing thread or the charging and Cybertruck thread?

You do realize the market is open and it isn't the weekend yet...

The MOD WWF Smackdown will happen shortly... standing by

 

[FEERSUMENDJIN]

MOAR revenue @wallstreetClowns
View attachment 951567


I'm sure you have noticed it as well but it's wild how large a % of the population regularly travels across the country with a fully loaded horse trailer. Gotta be like 30% if social media is to be trusted.

My main point is that you are 100% wrong in this post:



They are electrically identical using only 5 pins: the 2 large DC pins, ground, and two communication pins. No AC pins are in use on a CCS connector.

A CCS1 compatible vehicle can charge at a CCS2 charger with just a passive adapter, because they are electrically identical. On a CCS compatible vehicle a passive adapter can be used to convert between any two of these: NACS, Tesla Type 2, CCS1, and CCS2 to charge at a CCS compatible charger.

And like it says a CCS2 plug can not have AC pins, so you can't not AC charge on a CCS2 charger/connector. (No CCS charger in the world provides AC to a vehicle.) Here is a picture that shows the 4 AC pins not present on a CCS2 connector next to a Type 2 connector:

View attachment 952088

AC charging requires using a J1772 or Type 2 plug.

You still don't understand the original criticism in that we only care about the car end, and the overall purpose of the standard, your point about a DC charger not having the AC pins is beyond irrelevant.

 

[CorneliusXX]

Is this the investing thread or the charging and Cybertruck thread?

You do realize the market is open and it isn't the weekend yet...

Charging doesn't even seem material from an investment perspective. Adaptors would have allowed the same volume of supercharger customers. Maybe some IRA benefit in 1/3rd of the global market. Even if every EV on earth charged full time at a supercharger the margins (which would decrease with utilisation) would only be incremental compared to the sale of new vehicles and the options on all the Tesla startups.

I can only conclude that American's have PTSD from poor alternative charging and can't help but re-live the moment.

 

[MP3Mike]

Surely a CCS2 does not have to be a combo coupler ?

Yes, a CCS2 connector has to be the combo with the DC pins below.

And in the common or garden variety the type 2 CCS2 is just the AC pins.

No, that isn't a CCS2 connector, that is a Mennekes Type 2 connector.

CCS2 connectors are prohibited from having the AC pins in the upper portion.

You still don't understand the original criticism in that we only care about the car end, and the overall purpose of the standard, your point about a DC charger not having the AC pins is beyond irrelevant.

No, I think you fully missed what was being discussed. Someone said that CCS1 and CCS2 were electrically identical such that you could use a passive adapter to charge at a station of the opposite type from your vehicle. Someone else said that was false and any adapter would require electronics to convert between them. Which is incorrect, a passive adapter can convert between CCS1 and CCS2 with no issues, as they are electrically identical. (Same pins/communication protocol just laid out in a different physical format.)

 

[2daMoon]

Sorry to have posted an investing topic in this investing thread.

I really got a charge out of that comment.

 

[petit_bateau]

Yes, a CCS2 connector has to be the combo with the DC pins below.


No, that isn't a CCS2 connector, that is a Mennekes Type 2 connector.

CCS2 connectors are prohibited from having the AC pins in the upper portion.


No, I think you fully missed what was being discussed. Someone said that CCS1 and CCS2 were electrically identical such that you could use a passive adapter to charge at a station of the opposite type from your vehicle. Someone else said that was false and any adapter would require electronics to convert between them. Which is incorrect, a passive adapter can convert between CCS1 and CCS2 with no issues, as they are electrically identical. (Same pins/communication protocol just laid out in a different physical format.)

Thanks. I had understood that aspect of it. But I had thought that - strictly speaking - both the type 2 (sans DC) and the combo (with DC) were CCS2. I learn something new every day.

Back to shareprice .....

 

[Krugerrand]

When electricians disagree; someone gets -

And I’m okay with that. In fact, you should all line up and take a turn.