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If FSD is as good as Elon thinks it is,
It’s not clear what Elon thinks about FSD.

In any case, it’s bad enough that having drivers who are vigilant and capable of self control and able to anticipate traffic events 10 seconds ahead is probably just the right thing. No idea how they will enforce that behavior on an ongoing basis though - there’s no precedent for there being any such measure being effective.
 
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TL;DR: The Safety Score is crap.

So, after having read half a dozen pages of this thread (not quite willing to read all 35 of them), I'm going to let off a bit of steam. Like 80% of Americans, I believe that my driving ability and safety is well above average. I know that I drive faster than the speed limit, but my comfortable and normal following distance is about 2 seconds, and I tend to not change lanes. I don't text when I drive, half a million miles on a motorcycle trained me to always be paying attention to all the cars around me, and I tend to be considerate of other drivers.

I'm really appreciative of the transparency of Tesla's calculation - Safety Score Beta tells you precisely what G-levels correspond to "extreme force" in braking, or turning. One of the problems that I personally have with most insurance efforts to put a transponder in vehicles is a lack of transparency - what are they measuring, and how are they judging? It's great that I can find that out.

But, let's talk. They don't apparently score hard accelerations. Doing 1+G accelerations in your M3P on the street doesn't impact your safety score, but 0.3G braking does - and in my vehicle, full regen is sufficient to ding me for hard braking. A 0.4G turn is a ding, and I do those everytime I make a 90 degree right turn out of a side street onto a main street and try to stay within the curb lane's boundaries. AP disengagements seems like it's trying to measure attentiveness - and a forced AP disengagement really does imply unattentiveness in my book - but a great proxy for non-AP attentiveness would seem to be Lane Departures (which wouldn't need Lane Departure Warnings enabled) which isn't measured. AP disengagements is obviously only a factor when on AP, LDW would measure on a finer time scale and when not on AP. I'm sorry, but if you regularly are ping-ponging off the lane lines when driving manually you're either not paying attention or your driving skills are so poor that you shouldn't be driving. Perhaps "lane changes per mile" would be a great criteria - I don't have the data that Tesla has, but it seems to me that those people slaloming traffic doing ten lane changes per mile are more likely to be in an accident than me driving two seconds behind the car in front of me in the middle lane for 10 miles.

It appears to me that Tesla made some decisions as to what their evaluation criteria should be, some of which (like acceleration) are questionable, then ran it through their big data statistical analysis to create their PCF function. That's great and all, but you could put in any criteria and crunch the data to determine it's impact on PCF - for example, you could use the color of the car, or the color of the driver's skin, and calculate the appropriate coefficients to add it into the PCF; that doesn't make it a great criteria.

I'd really hate to see what a weekend at the Autocross would do to my score, even though I believe that it makes me a better, safer driver.

I like your lane departure warning idea. Also tracking number of lane changes / time is another great one.

Tesla Safety Score safety factors are pretty much the same things that traditional auto insurance companies are trying to do with their OBD transponders. It seems clear to me that if Tesla wants to have an advantage over other insurers, they need to leverage the data they can collect that those transponders can't collect. My wife and I were brainstorming, and we came up with a list of 20-some things that could be used as weights (following stop sign/traffic lights, respecting yield signs, using turn signals, passing on the right, etc etc).

I don't think all that is necessary to pick a cohort of safe FSD testers, but for their insurance product, coming up with a statistical score that's way better than their competition is absolutely necessary. Leverage those cameras!
 
Watch Kim Paquette’s FSD 10.1 videos posted last weekend on Twitter during low traffic periods. She lives in a town with ancient, narrow roads so FSD is really tested but her videos show how far FSD has to go before it should be routinely used. Musk should be ashamed of himself every time he gives a breathless tout of the latest and greatest FSD beta. Kim’s videos show why wide distribution of FSD beta is probably a bad idea for Tesla. I want it just as you do, but it is far from a finished, safe product and Tesla may walk into a PR nightmare if the product isn’t substantially improved before wide distribution. Hence the goofy safety requirement of a gamed 100 score.

OTOH, someone who lives in Kim's area is likely going to have a harder time scoring high, so despite the flaws of the score, it might have an unintended (or maybe a 200IQ intended) effect of delivering FSD beta in areas that can help improve it incrementally while reducing the risk of an accident and a PR nightmare.

Not everyone gaming the score is successful, as many people have lamented.
 
I'm starting to see this as a challenge but with a different objective. I think it's more fun than those of you suffering through trying to get a hundred driving like 80-year-old ladies!

At this point I'm so frustrated with the dishonesty of taking 10,000 of my dollars for software that may never exist and promising it by year end. Why should I comply with this absurd new mandate when I can just file a lawsuit or demand arbitration on January 1st when the system does not allow full self-driving on city streets.

To any Fanboys I apologize.



Screenshot_20210929-162552_Tesla.jpg
 
If I happen to be able to get my score back up to 100 (actually back to 99.5), I’m planning to only drive my car selectively for the remainder of the test period. Probably just a few low risk miles in a controlled environment on each day if I do reach this goal.

But it’s not clear that I’ll actually be able to get back to that level. Currently at 99.3 or so. But just a single incident at this point could make 99.5+ essentially unobtainable, without investing a huge amount of time in racking up “gamed” perfect miles. So far ~95% of my miles have been “natural” miles. Just 10 miles spent gaming the system.

In my regular driving, I’ve also taken to constantly speeding up and slowing down as I drive along surface streets, to maximize the denominator. It’s like the return of “pulse and glide.” This will mitigate the impact of any incidents and maybe allow me to keep my goal in reach. Really regretting not doing this the very first day (that 98.51 is really hurting me - still need 100 more miles of 100 to compensate). Constantly smoothly weaving from side to side between two lanes is advanced technique that I have not attempted yet. I’m also picking routes that avoid traffic lights, especially the high risk ones.

I’m looking forward to seeing the Teslas in my neighborhood start to employ these advanced techniques. I’ve already seen several driving slowly around the neighborhood at night. As I was crossing the street on my mountain bike yesterday, I saw a Tesla at the top of a nearby hill apprehensively roll very slowly to a stop due to my presence. I know what they are up to. It’s probably great fun to roll out on a bike into the street in front of one - you just don’t want to cut it too close. Have to allow for slowing at less than 0.3g to ensure safety.
 
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The website has said coming later this year for years. Tesla will just use the “you should have known better” defense.
"You should have known better" is not likely a valid defense against fraud when perpetrated by a sophisticated corporation and executive leadership. The question is will a jury of random Americans be sympathetic to the purchaser of a vehicle or to Tesla and the world's richest individual who's been known exaggerated or untruthful statements and been the subject of SEC violations and fines.
 
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"You should have known better" is not likely a valid defense against fraud when perpetrated by a sophisticated corporation and executive leadership. The question is will a jury of random Americans be sympathetic to the purchaser of a vehicle or to Tesla and the world's richest individual who's been known exaggerated or untruthful statements and been the subject of SEC violations and fines.
As far as I know no one has seriously tried to get a refund which is very surprising to me. You have to opt out of arbitration within the first 30 days to keep the right to sue Tesla. I gather that you can still file a claim in small claims court though.
Anyway someone is pursuing arbitration right now: FSD Arbitration.
 
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As far as I know no one has seriously tried to get a refund which is very surprising to me. You have to opt out of arbitration within the first 30 days to keep the right to sue Tesla. I gather that you can still file a claim in small claims court though.
Anyway someone is pursuing arbitration right now: FSD Arbitration.
Thank you for that thread! Honestly I'd rather just get this stupid beta and watch it evolve over time but Tesla seems determined to play games
 
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I like your lane departure warning idea. Also tracking number of lane changes / time is another great one.

Tesla Safety Score safety factors are pretty much the same things that traditional auto insurance companies are trying to do with their OBD transponders. It seems clear to me that if Tesla wants to have an advantage over other insurers, they need to leverage the data they can collect that those transponders can't collect. My wife and I were brainstorming, and we came up with a list of 20-some things that could be used as weights (following stop sign/traffic lights, respecting yield signs, using turn signals, passing on the right, etc etc).

I don't think all that is necessary to pick a cohort of safe FSD testers, but for their insurance product, coming up with a statistical score that's way better than their competition is absolutely necessary. Leverage those camera

I'm starting to see this as a challenge but with a different objective. I think it's more fun than those of you suffering through trying to get a hundred driving like 80-year-old ladies!

At this point I'm so frustrated with the dishonesty of taking 10,000 of my dollars for software that may never exist and promising it by year end. Why should I comply with this absurd new mandate when I can just file a lawsuit or demand arbitration on January 1st when the system does not allow full self-driving on city streets.

To any Fanboys I apologize.



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My grandmother is in her mid-80s and she will scare the urine from your bladder. Not because she's ignorantly dangerous but because she's aggressive like an Italian driver in Rome after espresso in rush hour. People that drive slow for whatever reason are either inexperienced or have a disability.
 
The fact that people are changing their everyday driving habits to get a better score undermines its value as a safety indicator. It would have been better if it was invisible. In the end, it's more of a game than anything else.
If they made the scoring invisible or even just somewhat opaque, people would accuse Tesla of only giving it to influencers.

Think of tending FSD as a game, but with deadly consequences for failure. It would be good to have people who have the ability to excel at the game (not just people who know how to reset their scores - though that will limit their mileage and it would be detectable by Tesla).

It’s not clear how you create a game which translates directly to good FSD tending, though. That’s a very difficult problem! But I feel that they have probably narrowed the candidate field fairly well. Even if they cannot accomplish that goal.

I’m not particularly optimistic about what will happen if/when FSD Beta is rolled out to these select few (thousand). But if they are going this route, I don’t have a suggestion for what they could do to better screen candidates.
 
we came up with a list of 20-some things that could be used as weights (following stop sign/traffic lights, respecting yield signs, using turn signals, passing on the right, etc etc).

If passing on the right was a weight, then everyone in Washington state would have a score of 0...

I was thinking there are probably much better ways to measure attentiveness than what they are doing. For instance, instead of follow distance measure the time between a speed change of a car in front, and the reaction of the person in the Tesla. Most of the things they are measuring don't really relate to attentiveness at all.
 
If passing on the right was a weight, then everyone in Washington state would have a score of 0...

I was thinking there are probably much better ways to measure attentiveness than what they are doing. For instance, instead of follow distance measure the time between a speed change of a car in front, and the reaction of the person in the Tesla. Most of the things they are measuring don't really relate to attentiveness at all.


yeah that list was not necessarily weights for measuring attentiveness, but safety/collision avoidance. You're on point though that a score designed for safety/collision avoidance ISN'T necessarily the best metric for FSD testing qualifications. Attentiveness could be. Tesla just took the easy way out and repurposed something from their budding insurance product to use for FSD testing qualifications. And that's why there's so much controversy with the scoring (aside from it just wrongly penalizing here and there).
 
My grandmother is in her mid-80s and she will scare the urine from your bladder. Not because she's ignorantly dangerous but because she's aggressive like an Italian driver in Rome after espresso in rush hour. People that drive slow for whatever reason are either inexperienced or have a disability.

I didn't know Britney Spears had an awesome grandma. Can you get me an autograph for the both of yous?